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Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


M0ltar

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Thank you for your answer :)

 

Yes I thought it was made clear.

 

Last last last ditch. That’s literally the ONLY time ever. And even then many pilots may feel apprehensive.

 

It is NOT:

 

-A going in gameplan.

 

-A technique to improve turn performance.

 

-A tool to get a few more angles for weapons.

 

-To be used for comparing jets performance.

 

-Trained to at all IRL.

 

*All of that is from a Hornet’s perspective. While I can’t talk to the nuance of other jets, one thing is the same for all jets: Over Ging will break the jet. Control surfaces deforming leading to undesirable (possibly uncontrollable) flight characteristics, depending on the circumstances of the over stress.

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Yes I thought it was made clear.

 

Last last last ditch. That’s literally the ONLY time ever. And even then many pilots may feel apprehensive.

 

It is NOT:

 

-A going in gameplan.

 

-A technique to improve turn performance.

 

-A tool to get a few more angles for weapons.

 

-To be used for comparing jets performance.

 

-Trained to at all IRL.

 

*All of that is from a Hornet’s perspective. While I can’t talk to the nuance of other jets, one thing is the same for all jets: Over Ging will break the jet. Control surfaces deforming leading to undesirable (possibly uncontrollable) flight characteristics, depending on the circumstances of the over stress.

 

Shack.

 

Not to mention, we don't fight for ONE engagement. Our jobs are to bring the jet back to be turned to fight again. Over-G'ing an aircraft requires maintenance inspection (and replacing parts as necessary). The aircraft becomes a hangar queen and is then no longer useful for the war.

 

No professional fighter pilot will intentionally break the jet unless there are absolutely no other options.

 

And G-limits are not absolute. They change based on fuel weight, stores, etc.

 

An F-16 with bombs is limited to 5.5Gs. It's 6.5Gs until the tanks are dry. 7.33Gs with a TGP. 8.5Gs with empty tanks. 9.0Gs clean.

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7.5 G was the original operational limit the Tomcat was designed for as a carrier operated fighter (hence this is where the EM charts stop), however as purchases were cut short individual airframes had to last longer and thus it was decreased to 6.5 G. However as mentioned the F-14 features the same ultimate load limit as the F-15, which itself was cleared for 9 G due to not having to deal with the daily stresses of carrier operations. So if you're breaking the F-14, then you're breaking the F-15 at the same G as well.

 

As for how many G's F-14 pilots would pull in combat, I believe that if they felt they needed to pull more than 7.5 G, then they would do it - that's what the majority say themselves atleast.

 

Keith "Okie" nancy on the subject (he went to 12.5 G, by accident, without any signs of stress damage btw):

 

 

Really really interesting, expecially the part in which says : "i know six and half was the max but i routinely exceeded them on fighting guys out there because you have to sometimes"

And listening to him, seems that 12,5g was not a problem at all.

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@Mover Isn't the F-16 able to sustain 9.3 G's? That's what the DFLCS control laws suggest at least.

 

Asking as there's an ongoing debate as to wether or not the DCS F-16C Blk.50 should be able to reach and hold 9.3 G's symmetric, something the DFLCS logic and other -16 jocks says it should.

 

DCS F-16 as tested vs HAF EM charts:

 

wJ3NN0u.png

 

 

Would be great with your view point on this.

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@Mover Isn't the F-16 able to sustain 9.3 G's? That's what the DFLCS control laws suggest at least.

 

Asking as there's an ongoing debate as to wether or not the DCS F-16C Blk.50 should be able to reach and hold 9.3 G's symmetric, something the DFLCS logic and other -16 jocks says it should.

 

DCS F-16 as tested vs HAF EM charts:

 

wJ3NN0u.png

 

 

Would be great with your view point on this.

 

Up to 9.3. Sustain and hold, not that I know of. I only flew the Block 40s for the night systems course and never in BFM. The analog FLCS of the Block 30 could give you more than 9 depending on your speed. (I pulled 9.8 because I was supersonic at the merge)

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Really really interesting, expecially the part in which says : "i know six and half was the max but i routinely exceeded them on fighting guys out there because you have to sometimes"

And listening to him, seems that 12,5g was not a problem at all.

 

Keep in mind 12.5 G's was by accident and certainly not ever something he (or any other tomcat pilot) would ever conciously attempt to pull. That said the amazing part is that the aircraft showed no signs of stress damage afterwards. But then again Grumman did stress test the airframe to 13+ G's before something broke, so it was definitely an overengineered piece of kit in that respect.

 

That said a 8 G limit for the FOH competition wouldn't bother me, esp. since you don't ever need to exceed this to win in the cat, it's best maneuvering performance being at way lower G's.

It's just that since it was designed to the same limits as the F-15, I would've personally limited these two to the same 9.5 G, but 8 G doesn't bother me either.

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Up to 9.3. Sustain and hold, not that I know of. I only flew the Block 40s for the night systems course and never in BFM. The analog FLCS of the Block 30 could give you more than 9 depending on your speed. (I pulled 9.8 because I was supersonic at the merge)

 

Yes 9.3 max, however currently it struggles to hit 9.0 G in DCS (very reluctant to pass 8.8 G), not being able to hit it instantaneous until a good deal later than it should (illustrated on the chart posted before)

 

Another thing is that reaching 9 G in the DCS Viper seems to happen veery slowly (low G onset rate), making it feel sluggish in pitch. What's your take on this?


Edited by Hummingbird
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This is amazing, you can not make this up, the government is going to put a gamer up against a state of the art combat AI?

 

The 1980s' called and it wants its B grade movie plot back :lol:

How do I place a bet on the amazon delivery drone winning by the way?

 

Yep after reading through the thread right now I've got sooo much faith in our future Doug Masters

Christ its too funny


Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork
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Keep in mind 12.5 G's was by accident and certainly not ever something he (or any other tomcat pilot) would ever conciously attempt to pull. That said the amazing part is that the aircraft showed no signs of stress damage afterwards. But then again Grumman did stress test the airframe to 13+ G's before something broke, so it was definitely an overengineered piece of kit in that respect.

 

That said a 8 G limit for the FOH competition wouldn't bother me, esp. since you don't ever need to exceed this to win in the cat, it's best maneuvering performance being at way lower G's.

It's just that since it was designed to the same limits as the F-15, I would've personally limited these two to the same 9.5 G, but 8 G doesn't bother me either.

 

 

Yes, i understood :) He made 12.5 because nobody told him about the stick update. But what i mean was that the structure was not damaged and not that 12.5 is a normal g rate :) But this make me also think that the cat could handle 9g in total safety.

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Hi just a few questions:

 

 

1. Why the line abreast starting positions rather than a more traditional style head on merge?

 

 

2. Does the Falco fight require F-16vF-16 or is Falco coded for DACT capability to defend against other airframes? Basically I'm asking if the human contender is allowed to choose a different aircraft?

 

 

disclaimer: I have very little time in XP11 and have no idea all the combat aircraft available in it, let alone how well they're modeled. As such, if the realism of other airframes doesn't permit a realistic dogfight then maybe I answered my own question.

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This is amazing, you can not make this up, the government is going to put a gamer up against a state of the art combat AI?

 

The 1980s' called and it wants its B grade movie plot back :lol:

How do I place a bet on the amazon delivery drone winning by the way?

 

Yep after reading through the thread right now I've got sooo much faith in our future Doug Masters

Christ its too funny

 

The government is not involved in this. Heron has stepped up to support Folds of Honor through this fundraising tournament.

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Hi just a few questions:

 

 

1. Why the line abreast starting positions rather than a more traditional style head on merge?

 

 

It gives people time to get their systems setup before a turn in/fight's on call (vs eating up range head on).

 

2. Does the Falco fight require F-16vF-16 or is Falco coded for DACT capability to defend against other airframes? Basically I'm asking if the human contender is allowed to choose a different aircraft?

 

 

disclaimer: I have very little time in XP11 and have no idea all the combat aircraft available in it, let alone how well they're modeled. As such, if the realism of other airframes doesn't permit a realistic dogfight then maybe I answered my own question.

 

XPlane11 is simply a rendering engine required for the connection. The physics engine is JSBSim which models the F-16.

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Thanks for the response Mover! However I'm still curious as to what u mean by "time to get their systems setup", and "(vs eating up range head on)" . Was the previous style of head on merges not enough time for people to "get their systems setup"? And is a head on merge at equal co alt and airspeed not conducive to some proper BFM/DACT training procedure?

 

 

Just curious if head on merges are not a part of typical IRL training

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The Hornet can overshoot the limiter in the transonic regime. Were you at 0.95 or greater?

 

You can pull up to 8.0 in the Hornet (Gonky says he's seen 8.3 I think). It's not an over-G without an 811.

 

Nah, testing was under Mach .8 (300-450 knots @ 5-15k). Full stick constant pull especially in vertical loops (but also works in horizontal) you can bust the 8.0g limit (even if only for a short spike, (again HUD max G indicator)).

 

I also just tested to see if I could get an 811. I don't think it's implemented because I can't get an 811 to show up. So I don't think that would be a good way to test if people used paddle. Is there a way to get 811 to show up in DCS?

 

Questions:

1) How will the G-limit rule be policed? Won't both tracks have to be examined after every fight to see who over G'd first if at all? Seems like that would be a massive administrative headache.

2) Is the G-limit rule about breaking the G-limit for a sustained period or even just for a spike?

3) If it is a spike, would you consider raising Hornet G's to 8.5 or at least 8.3 as Gonky has seen?

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I forgot to mention that Snodgrass was also a former Top Gun instructor.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/capt-dale-snort-snodgrass/

 

 

And i think you are absolutely wrong and also unfair because, with that you call an over-g, he has saved the life of his RIO, his own life and an f14 which costs many millions of dollars, from a mach 4 SAM missile during a mission of war in the Gulf, and he also didn't damage the plane because he had to go back to the carrier and land. You had to write he was an hero, and the fact you did not, put me many doubts regard the person you are and how much you are fair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you have 0 hours on a Tomcat while Snodgrass has 4800 hours, 1000 carrier landings night, day and all kinds of weather conditions.

So, i'm sorry, but i go on to trust what Snodgrass say and i go on to think that if an over-g in real life will save my life and the life of my RIO i'll do it without any problem and i would never be your RIO on an F14 after what you wrote about Snodgrass.

 

 

Here is his curriculum:

 

 

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

 

 

https://swisspl.com/ambassadors/dale-snort-snodgrass/

Dude, stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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Thanks for the response Mover! However I'm still curious as to what u mean by "time to get their systems setup", and "(vs eating up range head on)" . Was the previous style of head on merges not enough time for people to "get their systems setup"? And is a head on merge at equal co alt and airspeed not conducive to some proper BFM/DACT training procedure?

 

 

Just curious if head on merges are not a part of typical IRL training

Last year it was an issue. This is a sim, so it's not like you take off and have time to FENCE in. Too far apart, it becomes a BVR set requiring radar mech and intercept geometry. Too close, and someone will complain that they couldn't get their weapons set up in time.

 

Real life typically either involves butterfly sets (Line abreast, check away, then turn in and fight's on) or Abeam sets (essentially what we're doing with a set distance apart and turn in, fight's on from there line abreast).

 

It's a bit artificial due to the limitations of the sim.

 

 

Once turn in is called, is there any restriction on altitude/speed/lead turn/etc? or are people supposed to fly a neutral left to left merge going a set speed?

 

No. The only restriction is no pre-merge shots on the first merge.

 

Nah, testing was under Mach .8 (300-450 knots @ 5-15k). Full stick constant pull especially in vertical loops (but also works in horizontal) you can bust the 8.0g limit (even if only for a short spike, (again HUD max G indicator)).

 

Without seeing it, I can't speak to it, but you shouldn't be able to hit 8+ below 400. Maybe if you're just completely snatching the stick back.

 

I also just tested to see if I could get an 811. I don't think it's implemented because I can't get an 811 to show up. So I don't think that would be a good way to test if people used paddle. Is there a way to get 811 to show up in DCS?

 

I don't think MSP codes are programmed in DCS. I am not sure.

 

Questions:

1) How will the G-limit rule be policed? Won't both tracks have to be examined after every fight to see who over G'd first if at all? Seems like that would be a massive administrative headache.

 

Moltar has established a method in cooperation with Tacview.

 

2) Is the G-limit rule about breaking the G-limit for a sustained period or even just for a spike?

 

Yes. Same as real life.

 

3) If it is a spike, would you consider raising Hornet G's to 8.5 or at least 8.3 as Gonky has seen?

No.

 

In my entire career, flying above 7Gs in the Hornet was incredibly rare. If you're getting into 8+, you're doing it wrong. Fly better.


Edited by Mover
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Dude, stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

Dude i did not ask anything at you, ok?

But now i ask if you think it's fair to say to another pilot, who saved lives and a plane, that he only damage the aircraft. I think that respect is necessary, ok? From everybody and i mean really everybody, ok?

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Dude i did not ask anything at you, ok?

But now i ask if you think it's fair to say to another pilot, who saved lives and a plane, that he only damage the aircraft. I think that respect is necessary, ok? From everybody and i mean really everybody, ok?

You...you're arguing with an actual fighter pilot. Someone with tangible experience in his chosen field.

 

It's things like this that make people like Mover and Victory205 roll their eyes at us and cause the rest of the community to cringe hard enough to crack a molar.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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You...you're arguing with an actual fighter pilot. Someone with tangible experience in his chosen field.

 

It's things like this that make people like Mover and Victory205 roll their eyes at us and cause the rest of the community to cringe hard enough to crack a molar.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

You did not answer to my question and that is what matter, but you are still in time to do it.

I repeat the question: do you think it's fair to say to another pilot, who saved lives and a plane, that he only damage the aircraft?


Edited by maxsin72
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You are only trolling dude, only trolling...
Unbelievable.

 

Do you struggle with reading comprehension, or do you just enjoy being mule headed? How many times do you need to have the same information repeated to you? If you can't grasp what you're being told by now, you never will.

 

Go ahead and yank 10+ Gs out of your Tomcat in Mover's tournament if you think you have to, or because you heard some tangential story about Dale Snodgrass doing it at the end of his career, I couldn't care less. You'll have **** all to show for it either way.

 

Now, I'm finished going in circles about this. I've got grown up shit to do.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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It looks like some people skipped rule number one.

 

Mover, thanks for everything you are doing. I find JT to be a hilarious guy and I can't wait to hear the commentary. I never thought of him as a DCS fan though so it should be interesting getting his take on things. I can't wait to see the stream while sipping my cup of GS Gunship. Keep up the good work!

Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

"If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"

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