DCS: P-47D-30 Discussion

I'd really love to see a release date, so I can pony up and ask her out.

sorry but above mentioned test is nonsence (for any comparison with DCS)

Fw 190F-8 was never been equiped with 0,3 cal MGs (plane`s description in that document), means that early model of Fw was tested during that test, no F-8

and Fw 190D-9 was far away from any A(or F) Fw models...

sorry but above mentioned test is nonsence (for any comparison with DCS)

Fw 190F-8 was never been equiped with 0,3 cal MGs (plane`s description in that document), means that early model of Fw was tested during that test, no F-8

and Fw 190D-9 was far away from any A(or F) Fw models...

I guess you forgot to read the last line:

No doubt the accuracy and specifics of such a test could be argued over ad-nauseum (hopefully not), but it has been posted mainly because it makes interesting reading.

Interesting clip I watched on YouTube.... Don't kill me... I know it's War Thunder.... But some of the things the narrator says about the P-47 are the exact same things we'll soon be seeing in the DCS: P-47 sim.... Most people will fly it wrong... Stay high... Boom and zoom... etc.

http://youtu.be/ciWFtqBlBpA

It's worth a watch if your a Jug fan!

Stay high... Boom and zoom... etc.

Entirely correct. Except for us groundpounders :smartass:

some of the things the narrator says about the P-47 are the exact same things we'll soon be seeing in the DCS: P-47 sim.... Most people will fly it wrong... Stay high... Boom and zoom... etc.

That's all very well and good, but it leaves us Thunderbolt fliers in the cold when all the action's on the deck and we have no choice but to stay 20,000 feet above the fun in order to not be outclassed in practically every way by the 109. Heck, dive down to 10,000 feet to take a peek and you can't even run away if you get bounced, 'coz you're even slower down there, right? It gets lonely up at 30,000 feet when everyone else is trimming hedges, and that kind of altitude advantage doesn't matter much when all of the enemies are at an altitude where you can't out-climb, out-turn, or even out-run them.

The P-47D is my favorite of all the aircraft currently released or planned for DCS, but I have great doubts that it will be at all viable in the kind of dogfights that usually happen in multiplayer servers, which is very sad. Aside from the ground-pounders, I think the Thunderbolt is generally going to find itself a hangar queen, given the clear superiority of its opponents at normal online dogfight altitudes. If they gave it its historically-common higher WEP ratings, that would change, but as long as we're stuck with the factory-default lower WEP rating, I think the "Jug" is gonna be in trouble.

That's all very well and good, but it leaves us Thunderbolt fliers in the cold when all the action's on the deck and we have no choice but to stay 20,000 feet above the fun in order to not be outclassed in practically every way by the 109. Heck, dive down to 10,000 feet to take a peek and you can't even run away if you get bounced, 'coz you're even slower down there, right? It gets lonely up at 30,000 feet when everyone else is trimming hedges, and that kind of altitude advantage doesn't matter much when all of the enemies are at an altitude where you can't out-climb, out-turn, or even out-run them.

 

The P-47D is my favorite of all the aircraft currently released or planned for DCS, but I have great doubts that it will be at all viable in the kind of dogfights that usually happen in multiplayer servers, which is very sad. Aside from the ground-pounders, I think the Thunderbolt is generally going to find itself a hangar queen, given the clear superiority of its opponents at normal online dogfight altitudes. If they gave it its historically-common higher WEP ratings, that would change, but as long as we're stuck with the factory-default lower WEP rating, I think the "Jug" is gonna be in trouble.

Which is why we need bombers!!

Give it a chance. I am really looking forward to the P-47, too. I don't think it will be "outlcassed" in every way by the Bf-109 anymore so than it was in 1944. It is going to be a fun and challenging aircraft to master and the best ground pounder in the game, IMHO.

Have faith that Yo-Yo will continue to deliver high fidelity, accurate, FM's.

:thumbup:

I do have faith in Yo-Yo & co., but I also know that a big part of the reason why the P-47D wasn't outclassed by the Me 109 in the war was that they usually clashed at altitudes far above our standard online-multiplayer dogfight altitudes, and the real P-47D often (usually?) ran at higher-than-factory WEP ratings. Take away one or both of those factors, and we have a problem. Still, I suppose there's always mission editor-enforced fuel-mass loads, although that'll be useful mostly for duelling.

I do have faith in Yo-Yo & co., but I also know that a big part of the reason why the P-47D wasn't outclassed by the Me 109 in the war was that they usually clashed at altitudes far above our standard online-multiplayer dogfight altitudes, and the real P-47D often (usually?) ran at higher-than-factory WEP ratings. Take away one or both of those factors, and we have a problem. Still, I suppose there's always mission editor-enforced fuel-mass loads, although that'll be useful mostly for duelling.

It will be fine if those that fly it use it correctly. Just like any of the others (Dora, Mustang, etc) you will want to go in with a height and speed advantage or fly with a wingman if you want to trim the grass. Simply do your best to not allow the enemy to get in a decent position or disengage. I think I went 6-1 (crashed the landing because of vulchers) yesterday in the P-51 which I probably have flown 10 or so times since July. Those that fly on the deck will deserve to be shot down and I have no pity for them. You don't have to climb to 30k to be effective but you do need to climb in the 10-15k range.

I'm more worried about target visibility issue and how the EDGE is going to affect it. No use of flying high and fast in P-47 when You're struggling to spot anything below. Time will tell.

I'm more worried about target visibility issue and how the EDGE is going to affect it. No use of flying high and fast in P-47 when You're struggling to spot anything below. Time will tell.

Same here..

Up until the release of the Bf-109K4, I have bought everything and ever addon ED has ever made..

But I stopped at the Bf-109K4

Because IMHO two things have to happen for DCS to support a WWII flight sim

1) Improved graphic wrt spotting bogies

2) Improved network code

I have my fingers crossed that the new EDGE graphics engine will address item 1

But, I fear item 2 will never get address.. I mean it has been 10+ years of warpy online flying with DCS, as far back as the original Lock On.. And no improvement in all that time.

When DCS was a purly modern jet BVR kill sim, it was not so noticeable, but now that DCS is doing WWII and KOREA era, the up close gun kill is going to be the norm, and for that to happen, you have to have smooth network code..

Oh, and before someone tells me to get a better ISP, read again and note I said since the early days of LockOn.. Over that time period I have had 5 or 6 different PCs, lived in two different states of the union, we several different addresses in each, and a different ISP at each one.. And in all those cases the symptom was the same. In English, it is the DCS net code, not my PC, ISP, etc.

If those two things get fixed, I honestly think DCS is in a position to dominate the hard core online flight combat simulation market for years to come.

Download the ACG mod to fly on their server ... much easier to spot enemy planes with the changes they made. They also removed the exterior sounds, gun smoke bug, and added a tracer for the K-4s 30mm.

I'm hopeful EDGE and the release of dserver functionality will improve both of those current weaknesses. I guess we'll see how it all pans out throughout the year but I'm optimistic.

It will be fine if those that fly it use it correctly. Just like any of the others (Dora, Mustang, etc) you will want to go in with a height and speed advantage or fly with a wingman if you want to trim the grass. Simply do your best to not allow the enemy to get in a decent position or disengage.

 

You don't have to climb to 30k to be effective but you do need to climb in the 10-15k range.

{Hoping that the enemy doesn't know what he's doing} is not a good strategy. If the enemy does his job as well as you do yours, and there are as many of them as there are of you, you're going to lose if you're in an inferior ship. If your ship can't out-climb, can't out-turn, and can't out-run the enemy, you're in an inferior ship. You can't even disengage, all else equal; he's faster, remember?

Above what altitude does the factory-boosted P-47D gain an advantage in any of those areas over the Me 109K? I seem to recall it being pretty damn high ... like 30,000 feet or so, no? As I've said before, most people online prefer not to spend 15 minutes climbing after every fight. Aside from being boring, it causes the rate of learning to plummet, because of the low ratio of combat to non-combat.

So, telling me that I need to fly better (or bring more friends), so that I can beat people who are in a better airplane, isn't reasonable. Why the hell should I have to lose, even when I'm flying just as well as the other guy, just because my favorite ship in the sim is outclassed at normal multiplayer dogfight altitudes, because it's modelled with a lower-than-average rating for its model?

: /

 

Above what altitude does the factory-boosted P-47D gain an advantage in any of those areas over the Me 109K? I seem to recall it being pretty damn high ... like 30,000 feet or so, no? As I've said before, most people online prefer not to spend 15 minutes climbing after every fight. Aside from being boring, it causes the rate of learning to plummet, because of the low ratio of combat to non-combat.

 

 

: /

If thats your point of view... Ill guess this sim or at least this module will not be for you.

I am more than happy to go up... wait... look around... choose my battle carefully, under my conditions.

The P-47 advantage in altittude starts around 25K but thats not your only advantage. 8 Guns, (more fire power than any other) much more ammo than a 109, much more resistant to enemy fire. (Radial engine) (no coolant liquid to get hit)

And In case everithing goes wrong.. its the fastest airplane in a dive.

I cant wait to have this module on my hands!

So, telling me that I need to fly better (or bring more friends), so that I can beat people who are in a better airplane, isn't reasonable. Why the hell should I have to lose, even when I'm flying just as well as the other guy, just because my favorite ship in the sim is outclassed at normal multiplayer dogfight altitudes, because it's modelled with a lower-than-average rating for its model?

 

: /

And so... if you lose when flying just as "well" as other guy.

That only means you are not taking into account the disadventages of your "outclased" ship.

a jeep will not race a mustang in the street, it will race it in the mud

And so... if you lose when flying just as "well" as other guy.

That only means you are not taking into account the disadventages of your "outclased" ship.

In a server where the fight always happens below 15,000 feet (because often no one but I will climb above that altitude), when I'm in a ship that is slower, climbs worse, and turns worse than the enemy fighter between 0 and ~25,000 feet, then my ship is, in fact, outclassed, and knowing its advantages and disadvantages won't change that. In this situation (and others, such as when the enemy took off before you joined the server and is already higher--with his ship which, recall, also climbs better and is faster, as well as turning better, meaning that you can't get above him unless he lets you and can't stay away from him unless he doesn't see you), there is no way to effectively play this bird to its strengths in a manner that the enemy pilot cannot (even without exercising more skill than you) fairly easily counter.

An inferior airplane cannot beat a superior one without an advantage elsewhere, and in multiplayer servers (as with real life), it's just as likely to be the superior one that has that added advantage as the inferior one, because many of these external advantages cannot be ensured by skill. For an example: numbers--the enemy team is just as likely as your team to have more players, on average, and so it can easily be you who is the one with the disadvantage in numbers (in addition to the disadvantage inherent to your under-powered airplane). Another example, which bears repeating: altitude--if your opponent joined the server before you did, he could be high above you by the time you took off, and so it could thus be you who have the altitude disadvantage, and may I remind you that the P-47D at factory boost (bearing in mind that this was, historically, lower-than-average WEP rating for the P-47D, and so not an appropriate match for the Me 109K) does not climb as well as the Me 109K at low and medium altitudes?

If thats your point of view... Ill guess this sim or at least this module will not be for you.

 

I am more than happy to go up... wait... look around... choose my battle carefully, under my conditions.

 

The P-47 advantage in altittude starts around 25K but thats not your only advantage. 8 Guns, (more fire power than any other) much more ammo than a 109, much more resistant to enemy fire. (Radial engine) (no coolant liquid to get hit)

 

And In case everithing goes wrong.. its the fastest airplane in a dive.

 

I cant wait to have this module on my hands!

It is just the fact that you will rather not choose the fight, but the fight will choose you. You will be the biggest airplane, very visible and let me remind you that 109K4 is faster than you at most altitudes where actual fighting takes place.

You want to dive...do you realy think that you will be able to outrun a 109K4 when at 2000m you start your dive? It's all about mission objectives. Right now the whole "fun" is at the deck. So to B&Z people you will have to go down and then zoom up. Seems ok right? Well taking into consideration that right now after zooming the 109K4 can catch you in the Mustang just by climbing it is not a very good perspective for the P-47.

But I have my durability right? right...? Not realy... The 190 will have problems with shooting the P-47D down... but The K4 will take 2-3hits and you are dead.

But you say... So I will stay high. How high do you want to go? 5000m? 7000? No problem, you can do it... but nobody else will... so you won't shoot anyone down...

P-47D needs...no. It must have 150octane fuel with highest possible MP to even have chance against the 109K4 and Fw190D9 and remember that in perspective they will also get Me262. It is vital. The plane will still be slower at low altitudes even if it is implemented... but at least not as slow.

I love the P-47D... but don't force it to be 1943 version just because "reasons". Realy. In 1944 and 1945 it flew with 150octane fuel, so should here.

The P-47D30 in the ninth AF fought at factory boost rates. The ninth AF jugs were the more numerous in the late 44-45 scenarios They fought all sorts of 109/190 (no only the k or Dora outperformed them in speed or climb rates) at low altitude and still were very competitive.

Appart from the main discrepances in FM/System, the diferencies between the Jug and the K/D will be the same as they were in the old IL2. Still you could fight very suscefully in it. The fight was mainly at low altitude too. You started high clearing the space above you and then go down picking the bandit below. Exit windows was very slim (close to nonexistant) but if you were fighting with a team mate the Jug could be absolutely lethal.

47 with the 8 fifties can kill very fast (I mean, at high speed). Controlability at high speed is very good (better than the K both at pitch in roll except when exceeding the critical match) and the M2 ballistic allows for all sorts of shots (high or low deflection at different speeds). Compared with the mustang the Jug has 33% more firepower too.

As has being adressed before the visibility will be the main limitation. Not being able to spot the targets far enough could negate the advanges of the Jug.

I think it will be a very competitive opponent but it will requires being quite patient and avoid the close and slow scenario so probably that will put lots of virtual pilots off.

For the P-47's performance, I suspect that many here are still afflicted by Il-2 1946.

All we need for decent P-47 combat is air-starts at altitude. I know I will definitely make a mission with high altitude air starts when the P-47 is released.

1) Improved graphic wrt spotting bogies

2) Improved network code

1) I'm an incurable optimist and thus a dedicated believer in EDGE sorting this out.

2) This may be hairier. IIRC there was a DCS version released way back when where the netcode was OKish, with less "rubberbanding" and disconnects for awhile. But then something happened again and here we are :huh:

I wonder who designed / wrote the IL-2 netcode back in the day? Say what you will about the auld girl, but at least the MP part worked quite well...

And so... if you lose when flying just as "well" as other guy.

 

That only means you are not taking into account the disadventages of your "outclased" ship.

 

a jeep will not race a mustang in the street, it will race it in the mud

:thumbup: Spoken by a very capable MP pilot.

Yes it can be frustrating if you cannot overcome an enemy but some of the most rewarding kills are the ones against the "superior" birds that everyone proclaims can never be beat. We all want the Thunderbolt to be at it's best but it WILL come with disadvantages. That's the beauty of a true sim. Hopefully we get something we can all enjoy.

Im thinking there wont be too much difference transitioning from 51 to 47. 51 is already outclassed in most things besides turning with the dora. Even then when you start turning with a dora you're bound to get jumped by others so it's never a good idea.

An outclassed plane needs a smart pilot and tons of situational awareness. Ive been flying river raiders a lot and with that comes terrain familiarization. Ive been able to get 3 to 1 ( loss to runway crashes mostly). Most of the success is just from climb and suprising people from above.

Ive also dropped my resolution from 1920 to 17 something. Works really well for me.

The P-47D30 in the ninth AF fought at factory boost rates.

Only fought at factory boost rates? What are your sources for this?

Even if that is true, bear in mind, it doesn't alter the indisputable fact that the factory WEP horsepower rating was lower than the average WEP rating for the P-47D, overall. (The lowest ever set on a P-47D for combat missions, even, unless I am grossly mistaken.) Given that the factory-boost P-47D is going to be outclassed at normal multiplayer dogfight altitudes, why would you oppose the P-47 being given a higher, more normal, historical WEP rating? Why do you people want the P-47 to be an underdog, when it wasn't in reality? I have little choice but to assume that there exists a bias on the part of those opposing the simulation of the P-47D's historically-common higher-than-factory WEP hp. ratings (which still would not cause the P-47D to outclass the Me 109K, except perhaps at the highest of altitudes, where combat very seldom occurs in multiplayer).

For the P-47's performance, I suspect that many here are still afflicted by Il-2 1946.

Heh-heh, yes, there's no doubt that all of the flying games thus far, which have had a P-47, have portrayed it to fly like a pig. However, that isn't where I'm basing my impression. I've seen quite a bit of real-world data on this, back in the day; IIRC, the real P-47D, at factory WEP ratings, was slower & worse-climbing & worse-turning at low and medium altitudes, compared to a well-maintained Me 109K. And that's going to be a problem in the sim, given that the well-maintained Me 109K is the 109 we will be always facing.

There's no good reason, therefore, from the point of view of someone interested in a maximum-fidelity simulation of these aircraft, as well as from the point of view of an honest competitive virtual dogfighter, that the P-47D shouldn't be given it's historically-accurate higher-than-factory horsepower ratings, to make up for its disadvantages in speed & dogfighting characteristics at normal multiplayer altitudes. Everyone wins; it's historically-accurate, and it's more fair & even. The only people who have anything to lose by this are those who, while flying German airplanes, selfishly wish their opponent aircraft to be inferior to their own.

I recall hearing that ED was planning on, or at least considering, implementing the higher-grade fuel at some point, after all of the WWII fighters were completed, but that's going to leave quite a long time when the P-47 is the underdog. Hence my concern. I have no problem in an aircraft being the underdog, but only if it was really that way in reality (e.g. the F4F) and there's no way of minimizing the problem without breaching the fidelity of the simulation. But that isn't the case with the P-47D; it wasn't an underdog in reality ('coz higher boosts were used), and there is a way of minimizing the problem of {it being an underdog in the sim, 'coz lower boost was chosen}, without reducing the fidelity of the sim. Therefore, I see no legitimate reason for anyone to oppose that.