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Will there ever be a SA342sim?


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I'm a owner of the Gazelle module since it was released. I'm still holding my breath that it will someday be on par with the other helicopter modules. Atm, the flight model is something like a VTOL, feels extremely arcade. Will it ever leave it's alpha/early access state?

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Even if the FM has some problem that will be solved, its not arcade, remember is the only helicopter with SAS in DCS, just try a civilian helicopter with SAS and you will feel it. Seems like arcade but it is not.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Most of my arcadeish feeling comes from how HOTAS input is translated to ingame controls. There seems to be no dampening or friction present for collective and cyclic controls. It's 1:1 direct control maybe the starting point of most the troubles. Just try to move the collective (HOTAS throttle) very fast in KA-50 and see how it reacts in the cockpit. It can only be as fast as the KA-50's real collective. In the Gazelle i can move it fast as hell, as there seems to be no mechanical/physical resistance. Same for cyclic controls... And for the FM, physics or better mass and inertia doesn't seem to be right. Oh man, i'm really sad about the state this module is in for years...

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Are you really comparing a non SAS helicopter vs Gazelle and even one 7,692 kg vs 1.000 kg helicopter? Please, give real data and not your feeling to support your arguments. You can't compare these 2 aircrafts, they are completely different. You maybe don't like how it flies, but really, stop comparing these 2 because is nonsense. Sa342 is a very light helicopter so the intertia is very very very low comparing it with the other helos, its 1 to 7 in empty weight with the BlackShark even the Huey doubles(and more) its empy weight.

 

About the controls, mate if you KNOW that it can't move that fast don't do it. But if you have never touched a SA342 in IRL, provide at least a reference where we can see your statement is true.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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I used to think this, but as I've seen others talking, it is apparent this is a somwhat different aircraft. It is a very small aircraft, and the helicopter equivalent of FBW... So, no, it is very much different from a 1980s Soviet attack helicopter. I would think not comparing it to that would be a given anyway, but here we are.

 

And as always, ''your feelz'' are utterly and completely irrelevant. Hard data or sit down.

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Has one of you ever tried to fly it with a FFB HOTAS? (G940 here) It's an absolute mess. It might be better to fly the gazelle with keyboard or force sense stick only.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Has one of you ever tried to fly it with a FFB HOTAS? (G940 here) It's an absolute mess. It might be better to fly the gazelle with keyboard or force sense stick only.

No, their are really expensive, then did you look too the config? Maybe you have something wrong in the options menu.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Oh man, really? So in fact you don't have any clue about what DCS is capable to do with helicopter controls. And it is doing it perfectly fine for over 10 years now, since Blackshark 1.0 and in any other helicopter module...

 

 

I'm giving up for now, maybe the announced big update will bring what it takes to make this a better simulation of the SA342.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Oh man, really? So in fact you don't have any clue about what DCS is capable to do with helicopter controls. And it is doing it perfectly fine for over 10 years now, since Blackshark 1.0 and in any other helicopter module...

 

 

I'm giving up for now, maybe the announced big update will bring what it takes to make this a better simulation of the SA342.

 

Excuse me for don't have enough money for a FFB joystick

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Self centered controls (like most of the joysticks available) are a bit misleading when it comes to helicopters since there is nothing like this IRL. I am using non centered/hydraulic damped controls for the cyclic and I found the Gazelle to be actually the hardest RW to fly compared to all the other choppers modules.

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Since the beginning it's FM was strange, people were able to do crazy things like flying upside down etc. like with a fixed wing FM. And it's still like that, like a plane with VTOL capabilities. I'm pretty sure they are using a hack for fixed wing flight model instead of rotary wing. Also the body of the gazelle seems to be not affected by air (drag, density...). If you fly it very fast, there is no jitter, no vibrations not a single millimeter. It hangs in there, stable like a rock. Like if there is no air pressure to fight...

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Got a pretty hard retreating blade stall a few days ago while diving in a valley and not watching my speed. Didn't ended up well.

I hope this thread will not turn out into another FM discussion. Don't know about flying upside down but the Gazelle is a pretty nimble little chopper much more agile than all the previous DCS modules. IRL it can do some funny stuff:

 

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I don't have a problem with the maneuverability, this should be natural for a lightweight powerful helicopter. I'm talking about controls (which are strange to bad) and physics (weight transfer, aerodynamics etc.). Check this:

See how it moves? How forces apply? How weight (it's still a ton) is hanging on the main rotor when it lifts off? Here in DCS the whole aircraft is just a stiff block flying on rails.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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I have changed the adjustment of my axes for the collective, its way smoother now.

1076680468_Gazelleaxes.thumb.jpg.6e88c79dd6593f2e8c8e1d83d9d3d477.jpg

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Has one of you ever tried to fly it with a FFB HOTAS? (G940 here) It's an absolute mess. It might be better to fly the gazelle with keyboard or force sense stick only.

 

FFB is broken, to the extent that even enabling it at all screws up flying entirely.

They also announced that theyd stop developing it - just fix the basic functionality - but not even that fix is in yet.

Even if it did work, the module practically demands that you run reduced cyclic axis saturation, which again breaks FFB, and the FFB curve options are, well, curves, so not good either.

 

I just fly with SimFFB running in the background, full friction and dampening, 25% centering (to keep it non-centering but also not slack, using an extension)

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Just FYI, I picked up a used MSFFB2 for about €15 - as a spare for one I got got for €25 - , and seen several more listed.

 

I live in Spain, searched a while ago and no one below 100€, and ofc second hand.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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@Damcopter

 

 

I already found your comments and i feel with you. Polychop did a pretty bad job here. I'm also angry, because the module is more of a fake and mostly useless for me. I wonder what DCS devs are thinking about it, it definitely lacks their quality standard.

Another point is, it's pretty hard to explain to others with less experience or even harder if the gazelle is their only helicopter module/reference. Additionally, without FFB HOTAS most people will never understand what's one of the best features ever that DCS brought into the world of heli sims. Polychop completely cut this off, maybe they thought they can get away with it, because they thought only a few people have this kind of hardware.

 

However, we have to look forward and hope for the best.

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Just try to move the collective (HOTAS throttle) very fast in KA-50 and see how it reacts in the cockpit. It can only be as fast as the KA-50's real collective. In the Gazelle i can move it fast as hell, as there seems to be no mechanical/physical resistance. Same for cyclic controls...

 

That is something I consider as bad in any module, if there is a virtual dampening. If I move quickly the control input from one end to another, I expect to see same in the cockpit.

 

But what I expect as well to see, is a realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc.

 

So that is part that should be simulated, not the dampening for my inputs otherwise.

 

This is a problem in many modules, like example MiG-29/Su-27S there is no simulation of the inertia or the air in your aircraft but the aircraft flies directly as your inputs are. This is something you can see by comparing a real cockpit video to DCS one, where you can see that in reality pilot is throwing stick around a lot and quickly just to keep aircraft steady and stable, receiving a very small and nice control of the aircraft.

If you try to do same thing in DCS, the aircrafts reacts violently with huge effects. That is because the actual air resistance is not simulated.

 

And that similar thing is feeling in the Gazelle. You give a input and helicopter reacts to it without any hesitation. The KA-50 (that has as well SAS, gazelle is not the only one https://helicoptermaintenancemagazine.com/article/sas-autopilots-and-flight-directors-what%E2%80%99s-name) at least has this feeling that you have a mass, inertia and airflow. Gazelle still feels like a paper plane in a full controlled environment, and nothing like you can see in the real Gazelle pilots cockpit videos where they are extremely careful in all inputs and they can even do larger inputs without helicopter reacting them as crazy horse.

 

The Gazelle has no difficulties for anyone to fly. It doesn't have any mistakes to allow you to do. It is literally like flying an aircraft all the time but still performing all the hovering and transition flights effortless.

 

I have flight in much lighter helicopter than Gazelle, and there is nothing like Gazelle has now. Those things really want to kill you, SAS or no SAS.

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Oh man, really? So in fact you don't have any clue about what DCS is capable to do with helicopter controls. And it is doing it perfectly fine for over 10 years now, since Blackshark 1.0 and in any other helicopter module...

 

 

I'm giving up for now, maybe the announced big update will bring what it takes to make this a better simulation of the SA342.

 

Are you a real experienced heli-pilot ?:smartass: Or is your wisdom and knowledge falling out of your A.......hole?

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Actually, i'm an astronaut. Sometimes things fall out my astronaut's hole, yes...

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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That is something I consider as bad in any module, if there is a virtual dampening. If I move quickly the control input from one end to another, I expect to see same in the cockpit.

 

But what I expect as well to see, is a realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc.

 

So that is part that should be simulated, not the dampening for my inputs otherwise.

 

This is a problem in many modules, like example MiG-29/Su-27S there is no simulation of the inertia or the air in your aircraft but the aircraft flies directly as your inputs are.

 

 

Virtual dampening is a must for simulation. The collective of the KA-50 is a good example. If you could move it as fast as you like you would break simulation parameters (and by the way damage gears, engine etc.). Stuff like this needs to be mildly disconnected from user input in a way that you can adapt to it when you learn to fly the aircraft. Some Throttle devices have customizable mechanical dampening, this helps a little with haptics, but the simulation has to be nearly 1:1 within it's real life flight model or atleast as good as possible.

MiG-29/Su-27S are from the FC3 package, don't expect them to be on par with standalone modules on the grade of simulation.

And, because i'm a lucky owner of a FFB joystick, DCS replicates realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc. (in nearly all standalone modules, but not the gazelle).

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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