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Question about hornet's ILS system


Pamenchan

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Hello,

 

I've read some time ago, in a article about the hornet, that one of its big downsides is that it doesn't have a "civilian ILS capability" and so if the pilot had to land on a civilian airfield, for whatever reason, in bad visibility conditions, it was (at least) very hazardous.

 

1-Is it true ?

2-I know the hornet has the ILS to land on carriers, so if it's true what is the difference between carriers and "civilian" ILS ?

 

Thanks.

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Because the Hornet has a MLS, not an ILS.

 

Microwave Landing System, a lot more precise than ILS.

 

It can still use inaccurate instrument approaches TACAN (VOR/DME,NDB maybe ?)

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It's an entirely different system, ICLS, operating Ku band 12-18 GHz. ILS is below 1 GHz entirely. Even MLS is 5 GHz.

 

Probably CVN don't have ILS since it would poor performance. There is always PAR which works with any airplane with a radio and reflects radar.

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yes, it's correct that the hornet doesn't contain an ILS (US Hornets at least, some other countries opted to have it installed in lieu of the USNs version of ILS). However the majority of fast jets that are ILS capable are still restricted to CAT I approaches only, even if the airfield is equipped with a CAT IIIB ILS.

 

This means the aircraft can descend to 200ft above the threshold before requiring to be visual with specific references, and the runway visual range needs to be 500m. So even if the hornet did have an ILS installed and conditions were particularly bad it would have to divert anyway.

 

Diversions are obviously continuously checked to ensure they are not suffering poor weather conditions and the pilot will be informed about how much fuel they must hold in reserve in the event a diversion is required (not just for weather, an aircraft incident on the runway making it unusable would also cause a diversion). I have known in the past some poor weather crossing the country changing a diversion to an airfield in another country causing the aircraft in question to go into a "mayday fuel state" because they didn't have the required amount of fuel so had to cancel the remainder of the sortie and land with over half the fuel remaining. although this is rare.

 

The hornet will be capable of TACAN approaches but these are "non-precision approaches" and have a higher height/altitude that the pilot must acquire the visual references the minimum height for non-precision approaches is often 400ft above the threshold. Civilian airfields typically don't have TACAN however. I am unsure if hornet has the capability for VOR/DME or NDB approaches and less unsure if the pilots are trained/qualified to carry them out (RAF Pilots are not IIRC).

 

PAR as mentioned, is another possibility, but has the same limitations on visibility as the CAT I ILS approach, AFAIK it's also the USN's preferred method of instrument recovery, and not available in DCS.

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PAR as mentioned, is another possibility, but has the same limitations on visibility as the CAT I ILS approach, AFAIK it's also the USN's preferred method of instrument recovery, and not available in DCS.

 

Anyone know if this is something that's in the pipeline? Would be a good challenge :joystick:

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Civilian airfields typically don't have TACAN however. I am unsure if hornet has the capability for VOR/DME or NDB approaches and less unsure if the pilots are trained/qualified to carry them out (RAF Pilots are not IIRC)..

 

Tho, many VOR installations in the US are VORTACs. I guess that helps when in country.

 

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Probably CVN don't have ILS since it would poor performance. There is always PAR which works with any airplane with a radio and reflects radar.

 

It would be nearly impossible for a carrier to have ILS, right? Where would you put the approach lights and marker beacons?

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Technically, ILS is independent of the lights and beacons. However, I guess in carrier world, a higher frequency equipment is used due to EM / space / precision requirements.

 

However, when we get a GPS equipped version of the Hornet, it might be possible to construct a semi-precise approach using manual waypoints for airfields not equipped with TACAN. It won't give you full localizer/glideslope capacity, however you can do pretty precise approach with bearing / distance information with enough practice.

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Yeah you could do what's called an IAA (Internal Aids Approach) where basically you set a waypoint on the threshold, and conduct a typical TACAN approach then when you're on final you use the waypoint marker on the HUD to guide you in by flying it on a 3 Deg glidepath. It's still considered a "non-precision approach" but will do the job if you have nothing else.

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Hello,

 

I've read some time ago, in a article about the hornet, that one of its big downsides is that it doesn't have a "civilian ILS capability" and so if the pilot had to land on a civilian airfield, for whatever reason, in bad visibility conditions, it was (at least) very hazardous.

 

1-Is it true ?

2-I know the hornet has the ILS to land on carriers, so if it's true what is the difference between carriers and "civilian" ILS ?

 

Thanks.

 

Now that not correct. Our F-18C/D in LSMP do use the 109.30 ILS approach. But thats maybe Swiss avionics. As our Hornets anyway do have the Superhornet UFCD.

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Now that not correct. Our F-18C/D in LSMP do use the 109.30 ILS approach. But thats maybe Swiss avionics. As our Hornets anyway do have the Superhornet UFCD.

 

Most likely Swiss Hornets (similarly to some others operating exclusively from land bases) have the carrier landing specific equipment swapped into regular ILS. :)

 

UFCs have been replaced to this touchscreen style widely, though it has no relation to the ILS capability.

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Most likely Swiss Hornets (similarly to some others operating exclusively from land bases) have the carrier landing specific equipment swapped into regular ILS. :)

 

UFCs have been replaced to this touchscreen style widely, though it has no relation to the ILS capability.

 

It's interesting, could you say who else is using the Super Hornet touch UFC on legacy Hornet ?

Note: The Spanish have developed a custom solution.

 

Otherwise +1

Export customers operating from land bases do have ILS.

USN Hornet have aircraft carrier compatible system.


Edited by jojo

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Finnish AF as well as part of MLU2.

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It's interesting, could you say who else is using the Super Hornet touch UFC on legacy Hornet ?

Note: The Spanish have developed a custom solution.

Yep, as already mentioned, Finland, Switzerland and I'm fairly positive that Malaysia does as well. At least. :)

 

Unlike what is sometimes misquoted, A/G capability was never "removed" from the Finnish Hornets, it was more like the capability was not initially used. For example, while no air-to-ground munitions, captive stuff included, were available, one was able to simulate employment of dumb bombs, rockets etc. by configuring weapons computer appropriately if so wanted. Obviously, the smart weapons that were added to the capability during MLU2 required their related updates to the airplane's systems as well, but that would have been the case with any Hornet.

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Swiss Hornets have no A/G capability but have additional hard-points and reinforced wings to carry more AIM-120

 

Here a picture of the Swiss Hornet cockpit.

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/660975/j-5007-swiss-air-force-mcdonnell-douglas-fa-18c-hornet

 

Quite different from when they were originally purchased

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While acknowledging the risk of running severely out of topic (perhaps the original question has been answered), I am not aware of any hard point differences in Swiss Hornets in comparison to the baseline - it would be interesting if some light could be shed on this! :) Recall that a generic Hornet can carry 10+2 (AMRAAMs and niners respectively) if somebody wanted it to. :)

 

I doubt there are any chances to the basic A/G capability - they even retain the button. More likely, they simply lack the ordnance (and any upgrades that would come with introduction of some), having essentially the dumb bombs capability but none of the fancy stuff introduced.

 

Also, this wing reinforcement is something I've been looking at to find any good sources, or general knowledge kind of information. It would be interesting to know what structures specifically was targeted, and by what measures.

 

That cockpit pic looks pretty much in line with Finnish MLU2 standard. I wouldn't be surprised if the countries had some common procurement going on behind the schemes over the years, but I don't know obviously. :)

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While acknowledging the risk of running severely out of topic (perhaps the original question has been answered), I am not aware of any hard point differences in Swiss Hornets in comparison to the baseline - it would be interesting if some light could be shed on this! :) Recall that a generic Hornet can carry 10+2 (AMRAAMs and niners respectively) if somebody wanted it to. :)

 

I doubt there are any chances to the basic A/G capability - they even retain the button. More likely, they simply lack the ordnance (and any upgrades that would come with introduction of some), having essentially the dumb bombs capability but none of the fancy stuff introduced.

 

Also, this wing reinforcement is something I've been looking at to find any good sources, or general knowledge kind of information. It would be interesting to know what structures specifically was targeted, and by what measures.

 

That cockpit pic looks pretty much in line with Finnish MLU2 standard. I wouldn't be surprised if the countries had some common procurement going on behind the schemes over the years, but I don't know obviously. :)

 

Swiss Air Force has upgraded the Hornet two times now and is working on the third phase for 2030 ops.

 

I have no clue what Finnish Airforce did, but here is what has been part of the Swiss Upgrade 21 and Upgrade 25 program.

 

AN/APX-111

Tactical Aircraft Moving Map

Airborne Link-16

Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing Systems

Digital Communications to Wingtips

ALR-67v3

ASQ-228 ATFLIR

Upgraded GPS

New cockpit displays

Upgraded digital recorder

AIM-9X

AIM120C

 

The Hornets were built by RUAG and replaced the wings by RUAG in 2016. I don't think you will find unclassified information. There are some titan pieces which a different from any other C/D variant and you will find the search light coming from A/B variant which RUAG did includ in the Swiss Hornet. ;)


Edited by muehlema

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As mentioned before the FiAF Hornets use standard ILS + VORDME. PAR approaches have been retired here a couple of years ago. If used outside the main bases the TILS system is used (Tactical ILS).

 

You can do PAR approaches in DCS Multiplayer if the ATC has LotATC in use.

 

 

I wish there would be an option for the hornet in DCS to change between the carrier landing system and regular ILS. Would be handy for no-carrier missions in foul weather.

 

Regards,

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Swiss Air Force has upgraded the Hornet two times now and is working on the third phase for 2030 ops.

 

I have no clue what Finnish Airforce did, but here is what has been part of the Swiss Upgrade 21 and Upgrade 25 program.

 

AN/APX-111

Tactical Aircraft Moving Map

Airborne Link-16

Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing Systems

Digital Communications to Wingtips

ALR-67v3

ASQ-228 ATFLIR

Upgraded GPS

New cockpit displays

Upgraded digital recorder

AIM-9X

AIM120C

 

The Hornets were built by RUAG and replaced the wings by RUAG in 2016. I don't think you will find unclassified information. There are some titan pieces which a different from any other C/D variant and you will find the search light coming from A/B variant which RUAG did includ in the Swiss Hornet. ;)

 

Thank you, indeed the list seems very similar to the Finnish AF MLU1 and MLU2 updates, with just some individual differences such as Finnish using LITENING instead of ATFLIR.

 

This wing replacement/reinforcement is very curious piece of information, but makes more sense if Swiss folks indeed are extending the life beyond 2030. In Finland, some extensive structural modifications and even wing replacements were done to the Hawk fleet, but never to the Hornets to my knowledge, except for the fatigue repairs necessitated by the structural checks.

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As mentioned before the FiAF Hornets use standard ILS + VORDME. PAR approaches have been retired here a couple of years ago. If used outside the main bases the TILS system is used (Tactical ILS).

 

You can do PAR approaches in DCS Multiplayer if the ATC has LotATC in use.

 

 

I wish there would be an option for the hornet in DCS to change between the carrier landing system and regular ILS. Would be handy for no-carrier missions in foul weather.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

Damn, I didn't know they quit doing PARs.

 

As you bring up TILS, I wonder if there are systems out there providing similar capability to the carrier-equipped airplanes.

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  • 2 months later...

So pushing the ILS button in the Hornet will NOT bring up the ILS needles like the Harrier would, correct? I kept trying to get them to come on at Batumi with no luck.

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So pushing the ILS button in the Hornet will NOT bring up the ILS needles like the Harrier would, correct? I kept trying to get them to come on at Batumi with no luck.

 

That's for the ICLS

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