July 2014 Update #1

Feel free to sue RRG / Luthier. They are the creators. :)

ED is simply taking a failed project as publisher and pushing it through to completion.

True they are risky, however it clearly states here in the kickstarter FAQ that.

 

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

 

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

 

 

Now technically, Luther has certainly failed to fulfill all rewards of their projects. So technically according to the terms and conditions, he should refund us.

 

Now ED have taken over the project but are still not fulfilling the rewards promised, so it will be interesting to see where they stand in the legality of these terms and conditions. I do appreciate they are at least attempting to provide something, although as I've already stated 2 licenses for aircraft I already own, are as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

 

Cowboy10uk

The whole legal argument can only be answered with the answer to the following questions

Were ED involved from the start?

What happened to luthier? Fired or resigned? If he was fired who was really in charge?

Those answers are not going to be offered up.

How soon will we get any info on the SDK?

I really hope ED reconsider giving the lower backers the choice of aircraft. It's the major gripe and would go a very long way in public relations.

You keep saying that ED are trying to save this mess. My point is ED, were are part of this mess from the start, so stop trying to make it sound like they were an innocent bystander that just got pulled into this thing.

 

ED saw what the Kickstarter post said the same day the rest of us did. Heck they linked to it and promoted it.

 

The project is "financially unattainable" on July 7 2014, but it wasn't in October of 2013?

 

Perhaps that could be discussed? How could it take until now to figure that out?

W T F ?

You saw the Kickstarter post as well. What did YOU do to prevent this?

Seriously, wtf? It was RRG's project.

R R G was responsible. It was THEIR project. THEIR - as in "not ED".

And now RRG is gone and the project would be dead, IF NOT ED WOULD HAVE STEPPED IN. NOW it is EDs project, NOW they do whatever checks are necessary and try to come up with decent solutions.

I think now would be a very opportune time to release edge/hornet. LOL

EDGE/Anything. :music_whistling:

a positiv post now!

In other words, there will be no separate installation that runs outside of DCS World. That would defeat the primary goal of DCS World.

THAT was something i REALY hoped for!

:)

RR

Never said I was suing ED, Luther on the other hand.............

All depends if he replies to my letter.

However ED has to take some responsibility as they have been involved from the start of this project.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112433

MOSCOW, Russia – September 1, 2013 - Legendary flight simulation designers Ilya Shevchenko, Igor Tishin, and Matt Wagner are excited to announce an upcoming Kickstarter campaign for a new WWII flight simulation being developed for the PC. DCS WWII: Europe 1944 is the start of an exciting new flight simulation series. Built by industry veterans at RRG Studios with the same approach that made famous flight sims of the past great, and in partnership with the experts at the Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics, the simulation aims to satisfy seasoned aces as well as attract new pilots to the genre.

Cowboy10uk

W T F ?

 

You saw the Kickstarter post as well. What did YOU do to prevent this?

 

Seriously, wtf? It was RRG's project.

 

R R G was responsible. It was THEIR project. THEIR - as in "not ED".

 

And now RRG is gone and the project would be dead, IF NOT ED WOULD HAVE STEPPED IN. NOW it is EDs project, NOW they do whatever checks are necessary and try to come up with decent solutions.

What did I do? I don't work at ED what could I do to prevent it?

It was RRG in partnership with ED and TFC, as clearly stated in the KS.

ED is not "stepping in". ED has been "in" from the very start.

We're all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

Trust me... none of them are print ready by print standards....

So these will be 'press ready'?

What did I do? I don't work at ED what could I do to prevent it?

 

It was RRG in partnership with ED and TFC, as clearly stated in the KS.

 

ED is not "stepping in". ED has been "in" from the very start.

 

We're all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

Yes, ED was involved - which is no surprise as the project's platform is a product of ED. o.O

Most likely there were ED devs tasked to help the RRG devs. And those ED guys are now fully responsible for the project? What could THEY do to prevent it?

I don't understand where you get the confidence from that ED involvement was more than technical support. It was RRG's idea, they announced it, they collected funds, their devs worked on it, their CEO/PR manager/whatever was in charge for the customer relations. And now it was and is EDs fault. Strange logic, imo.

so now i stock with 2 aircraft that i allredy pay for

ED its not ok to use OUR MONY in this un fair game

the smoll thing u can do is lett us select the models and not louck us wtih models that we al ready pay for

My thoughts

Ok.

Here are my thoughts on this announcement.

I think the decision to "force" us to a certain aircraft is a poorly thought out decision. I mean, now the DCS community is going to be overloaded with P-51 keys, which many of us already have. If anyone doesn't already have it, it's because they're not interested in flying it. I personally backed at a level where the only plane I did not select was the P-51, and I was really looking forward to the Spitfire.

Why can't ED change the backer reward selection page here to include the correct amount of aircraft for the amount backed, 1 for $20, 2 for $40, 3 for $60, etc. I assume this would not be a financial setback for ED because we are still only getting 1/2/3 of the six aircraft. In fact, ED might even make more money now instead of later, because many people would select aircraft to be released at a later date, and then buy the Dora or another soon to be released aircraft now. Wouldn't this give ED more money for the dev costs of the yet to be developed aircraft such as the Spitfire/P47 instead of receiving the money after?

I really appreciate the effort ED has put into the salvaging of DCS: WWII, but they could have given a bit more thought into the rewards. Giving us keys to aircraft that we don't want isn't that smart. I backed this project to fly the Spitfire, not the Mustang, which I could have bought ages ago. And now, who will want the Mustang in exchange of a Spitfire? I don't know of anyone who would want it. And the street value of the P-51 will go WAY down after this.

TL; DR: I think that if ED did one small change, and that is to retain the amount of aircraft that we receive, but allow us to choose those 1/2/3/more aircraft, the community would greatly appreciate it, and ED would not lose that much profits compared to the current system. Please, let me have my Spitfire. I don't care about the wait time. Just that the community gets to receive the aircraft that they really want.

Thank you.

Sincerely

flare2000x

Well done Matt and ED. As a backer ive lost out a little but the original RRG rewards/plans were completely undeliverable. Hence they folded.

I commend ED for trying to deliver in on what were over ambitious and unrealistic promises. I also have to commend Sithspawn on his perseverance in the face of, at times, endless negativity from some disgruntled users.

To those of you upset with the way things turned out. Consider for a moment the value of what you are getting. Compared to say, a night out with friends, a few drinks, eating out, cinema etc DCS provides massively more value. For 30 or 40 bucks you get something that you can enjoy almost every day. For years. I have flown the 25T, the 27, and the Ka50 to death and still enjoy them. Once i have more time i will learn the A10 and p51. It never fails to surprise me how little some people appreciate the work that goes into these modules. At any commercial price they are HUGE value. As simmers, it can only be in our interest for ED and the 3rd parties to succeed. Business is tough and we must help them in any way we can.

Well done and good luck.

There go's my dream of a Modern air combat game because of some stupid WWII module. Or it will just take 10 more years. This can only bring doom. But i still can't believe people would actually pledge 40$ and think they would get all planes in full PFM fidelity. Unless they knew this was going to happen. I did not pledge anything because i knew it was impossible to go give all those pledgers all the PFM fidelity planes that where promised.

Please all just cut your loss and forgive for once so we can all keep flying Modern and WWII planes.

Yes, ED was involved - which is no surprise as the project's platform is a product of ED. o.O

 

Most likely there were ED devs tasked to help the RRG devs. And those ED guys are now fully responsible for the project? What could THEY do to prevent it?

 

I don't understand where you get the confidence from that ED involvement was more than technical support. It was RRG's idea, they announced it, they collected funds, their devs worked on it, their CEO/PR manager/whatever was in charge for the customer relations. And now it was and is EDs fault. Strange logic, imo.

The KS doesn't say built on ED's platform. It says in partnership.

There is video linked in the KS of Ilya at ED HQ discussing the project with ED's leadership as well as their artists, coders, etc...

Your argument is flawed.

Can someone help me here..

I paid $10 (I know its a small amount, but I knew it was too good to be true.) I wish I could have pledged more but i was unemployed at the time. Anyway...

What do I get. Do I get to purchase the 3 planes i chose for $20, or do I get nothing??

I think this:

Everyone who isn't happy with what the new reward system is, ED should mark their names down and not give them anything at all.

Apparently these people would prefer going to RPG Studios (which no longer exists) to try to get what they paid for. I would be curious to see how that endeavor turns out.

I think what ED has done, as well as Leatherneck Studios, is extremely gracious. Generally, if something sounds too good to be true, it most likely is. $40 for 6 flyable DCS quality planes? lol.

Replying on my phone so this may not be well formatted & I'll be cutting my response down quite a bit.

 

Your right, it does imply they knew it would happen - however I'm starting to feel perhaps they knew more than we give them credit. Ok. I'm just bein cynical, maybe...

 

When this all started, RRG claimed they could afford to do it with or without the kickstarter success. This was simply the diff of a better time frame. They also stated they had talks with ED on how they were going to go about accomplishing it and had ED's approval. We don't know WHY this all happened & it's been nothing but speculation. Wags stated they wouldn't go into details on why, just that "they absorbed most RRG employees and are pickin up the project". Something I believe a lot are overlooking is that ED also absorbed the work done & whatever funds they had (kickstarter & otherwise).

 

You mentioned the cost of 6 modules but there's only 4. Maybe 3, assuming the 109 is virtually done, save for textures. The large amount of work done to the map and other planes. I won't argue it's still going to cost money for them to complete, but it's also not that they're picking up a project which had zero accomplished.

 

Your also correct in that they could have simply scrapped it. Tho they would have to face the brunt of angry customers who backed with confidence that ED was approving of it all. Wrong or right.

 

I think a lot of people who are siding with the "backers are lucky to get anything & ED is losing by honoring the project" are assuming the only people who will be interested in DCS:WWII are the backers & there won't be modules sold otherwise. I think this is wrong. There were a lot who were interested but had no faith on RRG & were going to wait til release... Maybe I'm wrong tho & the only people who will (or, would had) buy WWII modules are those of us who backed.

 

Lastly, there is no discount for the planes we don't get for our pledges. That would, to a small extent, would ease the blow. Unfortunately some people misunderstood Wags original post & the misinformation keeps getting repeated.

 

Sith - to the map, I'm not valuing it as "nothing" in terms of we don't need/want it. I'm placing a "value" in terms of cost & out pledge. It was supposed to be "free" like DCS World, Georgia. It should still be free. If they turned around & told me I had to buy it, I wouldn't. I also wouldn't buy anything further.. Granted, I felt they were nuts saying "all planes would be free" when they were deciding how to sell things. You'll remember there was much talk about voting for 1 free plane w Normandy map. I'm also slightly confused to the WWII-dcs:world debacle as I've always been under the impression it would be maps & modules within DCS:World & those who didn't have WWII planes would still be flying w us in their mustangs & Dora's. Infact when I considered upping my pledge for alpha access I thought about what to do with my Extra Mustang key... Ultimately I decided not to increase my pledge.

i fill the same like u

ED Just Play With my selection

now i have 2 modes that i allready bay

But i still can't believe people would actually pledge 40$ and think they would get all planes in full PFM fidelity.

Precisely. PFM planes and new terrain cost ALOT of money to develop. RRG were effectively trying to do it for $8 a plane. They could not. And so they folded. Being angry that ED cannot do the same makes no sense. Those planes should cost 50 bucks each. If you are getting just one plane for that price alone you should not be complaining. Not to mentiion the new terrain as well.

....

I see. I guess we'll have to wait for a proper answer.

The KS doesn't say built on ED's platform. It says in partnership.

 

There is video linked in the KS of Ilya at ED HQ discussing the project with ED's leadership as well as their artists, coders, etc...

 

Your argument is flawed.

Of course they worked probably closer together as for example a freelancer who is developing windows apps and Microsoft. They had a mutual interest, sure. But you say, helping someone is equivalent to take responsibility for his whole life? Letting devs be hired by an other company and/or smiling together into a camera lens makes you liable for ... for what? All and everything, it seems?

It was RRGs project, for all we know. Nowhere was mentioned they were "equal partners" or even that ED would hold the majority in that project. But you are reading all this into the word "partner" ...

Its amazing the anger here, its an great deal for $40.

Free map, 2 free planes, and a $20 WWII modules for the foreseeable future. I would do that bet over and over if I could guarantee $20 modules for the next year or so on all of the ED modules coming out. Oh wait, I did and things are good. Basically only module I wont get a discount on from ED for the Next few years is F-18c.

Life isn't that rough.

Its amazing the anger here, its an great deal for $40.

 

Free map, 2 free planes, and a $20 WWII modules for the foreseeable future. I would do that bet over and over if I could guarantee $20 modules for the next year or so on all of the ED modules coming out. Oh wait, I did and things are good. Basically only module I wont get a discount on from ED for the Next few years is F-18c.

 

Life isn't that rough.

You don't get modules at $20, that's just the value of the ones in the KS rewards. The modules you don't get as a reward will be full price.

I think this:

 

Everyone who isn't happy with what the new reward system is, ED should mark their names down and not give them anything at all.

 

Apparently these people would prefer going to RPG Studios (which no longer exists) to try to get what they paid for. I would be curious to see how that endeavor turns out.

 

I think what ED has done, as well as Leatherneck Studios, is extremely gracious. Generally, if something sounds too good to be true, it most likely is. $40 for 6 flyable DCS quality planes? lol.

Actually you are getting what you want in part. $1 - $19 backers now will recieve nothing. Not even the manual their name will be list in.

You might not want to include Leatherneck in your example. They have said they will honor all their Indy commitments, it's just going to take longer.

I agree "$40 for 6 flyable DCS quality planes? lol.". I'd settle for a couple of my choice.