Best way to transition from Cruise to Hover?

For years I have struggled with trying to figure out the most effective and appropriate way of bringing the KA50 from a fast route mode to a location of choice hover position. Basically what Im trying to figure out is, once I take off and get the KA50 trimmed out to fly a lengthy course to the target area at a fast speed (hands off except for occasional altitude adjustments) I then desire to transition from the high speed trimmed out setting to a hovering point at the target area, or even landing at a FARP. I struggle with such a transition. For starters, I have tried to push the stick forward and work the collective quickly and then RESET TRIM! Well we all know that can be quite the experience, and most often can lead to Vortex etc, disaster. Lately, I have been slowly trimming back to a typical trim setting used for hovering. I found this method works pretty good, but I also found it takes quite a bit of distance and time to soften the transition. Now I have flown with people who I have seen come in pretty hot and are able to transition very quickly from that state to a point of hover in very short time. I did spend quite a bit of time with one gentleman with creating some very interesting curves, but in the end, I found it was not really helping me. I have not seen any tutorials on this so I was looking for some advice on methods. Thank you kindly for any help.

It's more a learned experience, as nice as the Ka50 is it's autos hide a lot of actual visceral experience. Do you fly other helicopters ?

Ok try holding 35/40 degrees pitch and balance the altitude with collective.

EDIT: Also watch the bearing and try to compensate if stats changing too much.

pull the nose up and push the collective down to maintain the current altitude.

Once you slow down you need to start making a more gradual transition to avoid getting into a vortex. If you start to drop from a vortex put the nose down quickly and regain speed. When you feel the altitude drop start pulling collective back up to maintain altitude. Keep the nose up until you stop because that is how you slow down in any helo. It helps to start slowing down a long way from your hover zone. If I am making a landing from a fast speed I usually have the collective all the way down and auto rotate for a while with the nose up. Sounds really cool in a huey. It is kind of hard on the rotor system though so don't over do it.

slyfly

Thanks guys, I may not have asked the question correctly,,,, so your buzzing along at high speed and maintaing course. You then decide its time to slow down.

Yes, I agree it takes practice, but practice what? Here is the key to this that I may not have explained well?

You are cruising along, and your TRIM is set for that (STICK FORWARD SUBSTANTIALLY AND TO THE LEFT), at this time, you can not simply pull back on the stick to pitch the nose up, you will then be fighting the TRIM you have set. What do you guys do to make that transition? Start tapping the trim down and towards the center gingerly? RESET TRIM?

Of course, I am assuming you all are setting the trim while on a long journey? I doubt anyone is holding the stick forward and to the left for a long period of time?

Thanks guys, I may not have asked the question correctly,,,, so your buzzing along at high speed and maintaing course. You then decide its time to slow down.

 

Yes, I agree it takes practice, but practice what? Here is the key to this that I may not have explained well?

 

You are cruising along, and your TRIM is set for that (STICK FORWARD SUBSTANTIALLY AND TO THE LEFT), at this time, you can not simply pull back on the stick to pitch the nose up, you will then be fighting the TRIM you have set. What do you guys do to make that transition? Start tapping the trim down and towards the center gingerly? RESET TRIM?

 

Of course, I am assuming you all are setting the trim while on a long journey? I doubt anyone is holding the stick forward and to the left for a long period of time?

Make sure that you are HOLDING the trim while pulling and when you have slown down then release! Also try using "Central Positioning Trimmer Mode" (if you dont already) and make sure you have "Rudder Trimmer" on (if you are not using pedals).

If you don't need to be quick but need to keep heading, then lower collective and bring nose up so you will bleed speed. That is the controlled easy way. Start planning that couple kilometers before.

If you are in emergency but you can't gain altitude (enemy shooting at you) then roll to either side, start pitching up and lower collective, so you do a horizontal turn at level but in expense of the doing circle.

If you are in emergency turn by flying over something or need to quickly turn around to back, pitch back and lower collective and go up to the sky vertically. Before you lose too much speed, pull collective enough up so you can get rotation capability and push pedal fully to either side to do a vertical turn so you get nose to the ground for diving, dive little bit to gain speed and then bring collective up and pitch up back to level flight at high speed.

If you need to do a emergency breaking, like quickly drop from 300kph to a opening in forest, quick roll, pitch up, collective fully down. You will slow down very quickly while being sideways and 90 degree bank (ground is visible on either side of your side windows). You will keep your trajectory but your heading is now 90 degree to either side. And to recover that, you need to roll back to the original heading while pulling collective back up in controlled fashion so you end up with a slight (30-40kph) speed to original heading, then bring nose to heading that you want while you drop to cover for hover.

The helicopter acts like an airplane when you are at high speed. So even if you pull collective down, the rotor disk acts like a huge wing. Why KA-50 has the own tail and wings so you have controllability at high speeds. So even if you pull collective down at 200+kph, your pitching up will be like pulling up on airplane so you will gain altitude quickly.

So question is in what order and timing and how quickly you pump your collective, cyclic and pedals, that how much altitude, heading etc you change.

And remember, you are not an airplane, you can fly to any direction of the aircraft. So after breaking, you can strafe or go backwards. So think that you are only controlling your huge rotor plane above you.

@ Hawk----Hmmm, I see your point! That is one Technic I did not consider (though I really should have known better) So cruise along, and when ready to start slowing Down, grab the stick, hold the TRIM in and then start pitching back and working the collective to maintain desired altitude. That sounds very logical indeed, Thank you. I will also set my "Central Positioning Trimmer Mode" (currently default) and "Rudder Trimmer" on (currently unchecked) and give that a whirl,,,

@Fri13---thanks for the feedback,

@ Hawk----Hmmm, I see your point! That is one Technic I did not consider (though I really should have known better) So cruise along, and when ready to start slowing Down, grab the stick, hold the TRIM in and then start pitching back and working the collective to maintain desired altitude. That sounds very logical indeed, Thank you. I will also set my "Central Positioning Trimmer Mode" (currently default) and "Rudder Trimmer" on (currently unchecked) and give that a whirl,,,

Glad to help. :pilotfly:

@ Hawk----Hmmm, I see your point! That is one Technic I did not consider (though I really should have known better) So cruise along, and when ready to start slowing Down, grab the stick, hold the TRIM in and then start pitching back and working the collective to maintain desired altitude. That sounds very logical indeed, Thank you. I will also set my "Central Positioning Trimmer Mode" (currently default) and "Rudder Trimmer" on (currently unchecked) and give that a whirl,,,

 

@Fri13---thanks for the feedback,

I use that technique with default trimmer mode (have increased the time I have available to return stick to center), just a matter of what you prefer. Rudder trimmer is mainly for those without pedals, but again a matter of taste.

I honestly do not know the differences between the mode options, but I intend to find out. Thanks for sharing.

I asked this very same question myself. This guy called buzmanni made this video to demonstrate. I've now found myself proficient at stopping on a dime.

Like the first reply says. It is a learned experience. You will get to a point where you can do it by feel rather than looking at instrumentation.

However for this exercise. I would like to introduce you the vertical velocity indicator (or whatever it is properly called. I just like to call it that). It's that gauge in the front dash where it tells you how fast you are falling or climbing.

Now let's play a mini game.

- Go from full speed into a hover without the VVI indicating more than 5m/s climb or drop. Bonus points if you can keep it at 0m/s. You will be shuffling your collective pretty much in this exercise.

Word of warning: Whenever you're below 60kph in airspeed. You should never have more than 5m/s drop rate. You will enter into a Vortex Ring.

This is why I like the Ricardo cockpit mod for the Ka-50. The gauge has a green tape where it tells you how safe you are descending.

Also try to practice generally holding trim when "flying" the aircraft. When just going... let go... but when you're actually flying it then hold trim until it stabilizes in the new attitude and then let it go.

I honestly do not know the differences between the mode options, but I intend to find out. Thanks for sharing.

Default = when you press trim all joystick inputs are "cut off" (i.e. no effect) for a (very) short time. You quickly move the joystick back to center during this time (and pedals if that's enabled). The time can be increased by changing a value in a lua file. Search for "trim tau" here in the Ka-50 forum and I'm sure you find how. I prefer this method since I don't have a centering spring on my joystick.

Center Trimmer Mode = when you press trim all joystick inputs are "cut off" untill you have centered the joystick (and pedals). Maybe better for ordinary joysticks with centering spring?

However for this exercise. I would like to introduce you the vertical velocity indicator (or whatever it is properly called. I just like to call it that)

Almost there. 'Vertical Speed Indicator' (VSI).

Ok,, so for starters, I watched that video, I would certainly like to achieve that level of skill. I have also read its associated post. There are a couple of fundamental questions that I do not have answers for. Maybe you guys do? I am wondering what the state of his augmentation systems are during his flight? Bank/Pitch/Heading/Altitude? I am also wondering if he set any custom curves for his HOTAS? How about you guys?

I can't speak for the buzmanni guy what his settings are.

In my case. I'm running entirely on default curves and whatnot.

For Augmentation.. I have the usual three switched on. Bank, Pitch and Heading.

Maybe this coming weekend I can run a stream on the Ka-50 maneuvering on the Aerobatic servers.

YOu need to know and obey the physical and structural limits as well. You dont pull the stick back like mad, lower collective to the floor and hope for the best, you do only as fast as YOU and YOUR KA50 can do it, that must be said.

I would start like this, fly 5-10m high, above runway, slow down, keeping same height, manually, than accelerate again, keeping those 5-10m, then slow down again...etc.. to get a feeling of how much "STICK BACK & CLLOECTIVE DOWN" you need. YOu will train your senses and muscles and over time, you will get better. Just if you never set those goals, you will hardly ever develop those skills and remain a "wild" Pilot, so to say.

Fly the strip up & down, repeat it many many times. Skills come from practice, not from thinking or typing about it.

It took me almost 2 years to learn how to ride wheelie as a kid. I thought I never make it !

My bike was too heavy, my legs to short, doing it sitting was no option, so I tried it day after day, month after month, in snow and sunshine, eventually I stood on my pedals and was cruising down the street wheelie, for like 20m, took me a year.

about 5 years later, I had a nice BMX bike, Hutch Pro Racer ( old glory days ) and I could coast down any hill, both feet off the pedals, one hand off the bar and smile, coasting down wheelie, ape style. Or ride wheelie as long as I wanted or until my right forearm muscles cramped from pulling the rear brake to maintain balance.

This taught me a few things. DONT GIVE UP, keep on trying it, eventually your brain and muscles pick it up and it will be a self-runner from that day on.

It doesnt come in a day or month if what you learn needs some serious skill. No master has ever fallen from trhe heavens, they all had to go walk the LONG way.

I stopped using curves aka Progressive/Degressive during my active R/C time. I like the direct, LINEAR, response. Any curve has a catchback. But tastes do differ, some use curves, I used them too for almost my entire R/C time.

If you set curves, do not overdo them or the catchback is brutal towards the end of tzavel. What you give here will be missing there. Thats how curves work

The Ka-50 is maybe the worst helicopter in DCS to learn this, the AP is one thing you have to msster as well, the trimming is also not the best if you dont have a true heli-style cyclic w/o springs etc... There are many things that make it even harder in this sim and in the Ka-50.

I honestly do not know the differences between the mode options

I wrote this post describing what all 3 do: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3197470&postcount=21

you will then be fighting the TRIM you have set

As others have mentioned, you can hold down the trim button, but realistically you'd enable Flight Director because holding down the trim button removes the force trim effect on the cyclic. Personally, I use Flight Director so that I don't have to keep holding down the trim button. Flight Director will disable the autopilot holds so that you're not fighting the heli, but the SAS augmentation will still be on, smoothing out your inputs.

As for stopping, I generally do a tight horizontal 360-degree circle. If you use the pitch up and drop collective method, it can be hard to slow down quickly without increasing altitude because even when dropping the collective all the way, you will still gain altitude if you pitch up too much. By doing a horizontal circle, you not only bleed off speed much quicker while maintaining the same altitude, but you also keep the ground in your front view the entire time, which is a good reference point.

Ricardo's blue cockpit mod is good because it not only makes the gauges much easier to see at a glance, but it also changes the font to make the numbers more readable.

Thanks guys, I truly appreciate all the feedback. I have certainly picked up a lot of good information. Before we get to far ahead of ourselves here, I need to fall back a bit. There are some fundamentals here that are not as clear to me as I would like. I do understand that practice is key, but to do that, I intended to get the initial key fundamentals clarified first.

To make an example, I find the YouTube video VERY helpful, especially with the link to the narrative. I can clearly see the indicator and how the controls are being applied. What I did not see, as an example, were what (if any) SAS Augmentations were set to. I also did not see if any trim was set prior to takeoff (maybe that does not matter so much anyway?) He also does not state if he was holding the TRIM button in the entire time?

My point i suppose is that there are quite a few ways to have your controls set prior and during flight that effect how you may transition from a high speed cruise to a hover. These would be some of the fundamental highlights I would like to get feedback on for example. Of course I may wind up getting all sorts of suggested approaches. I can tell you this, if I achieve the maneuvering capabilities that I have seen in the video, I would consider that a huge success!

EDIT: Oh Ramna13,, thanks very much for that link sir!

It's a very simple way that many simmers did forget while playing with a Helicopter simulator:

Keep your eyes out off cockpit and check out your position with lateral, horizontal and vertical references,externals.

Stop concentrate your attention on instruments,look out.A helicopter in real doesn't control itself with instruments except in case of IFR rules.You have to learn to fly the machine while looking external.After some time keeping the good attitude for each configuration of flight becomes natural.Instruments are only used to confirm that your are in the good way.

One only instrument is a must to see:the temperature indicator of turbine outlets.Nothing else.And this kind of indication cannot be found out of cockpit.

Yes, I agree I can do all that, but I can do that in several different configurations, Trimmed out / not trimmed out / Flight director on/ Flight director off / Bank & Pitch on / Bank & Pitch off etc. Personally, I have come to rely heavily on the Vertical Velocity Indicator. Not saying that is the "must Do!" Just saying that I use it ALOT!

what (if any) SAS Augmentations were set to.

The 3 autopilot channels for pitch, bank, and roll have two components to them. One is the SAS system, which is always on as long as the autopilot channels are on and are not flashing. The other is the hold component which uses up to 20% of control authority to try and hold the aircraft at its last-trimmed position. By turning on the Flight Director, the hold component is disabled, but the SAS is still on. Holding the trim button does the same thing as turning on the Flight Director, but it also removes all force on the cyclic. As I mentioned in the other post, if you don't have a FFB joystick, holding the trim button down does the exact same thing turn on the Flight Director.

So to answer your question, the SAS system is a binary setting and in normal situations will always be on. The only time where SAS will be off is if you turn off the autopilot channels, or your hydraulics are shot out.

He also does not state if he was holding the TRIM button in the entire time?

If you are in level flight flying in a straight line, you should trim your aircraft into a stable position and let the autopilot hold channels do its job. However, once you need to do any kind of maneuvering that's more than just a heading adjust, it's recommended that you hold trim/turn on FD. Otherwise, you'll be fighting against the autopilot's 20% authority, which is continually trying to return you to the last-trimmed position. So to answer your question, most likely he disabled the autopilot hold, whether by holding down the trim button or by turning on FD.

What Ranma said^

I find it easier to just hold the trim.

For starters, I have tried to push the stick forward and work the collective quickly and then RESET TRIM!

Things were probably already cleared up quite a bit as this thread progressed.

One thing I'd like to point out is that there is no Trim Reset on the real aircraft. It's only a helper for us virtual pilots in case we severely messed up our trim setting.

I would never, ever use trim reset unless the trim was so messed up that I didn't see any other way out of it. And by then I've probably created rotor blade salad anyway. ;)

As others have mentioned, you can hold down the trim button, but realistically you'd enable Flight Director because holding down the trim button removes the force trim effect on the cyclic.

Good advice overall, but I disagree on the Flight Director part. After many, many discussions about that topic, I've come to the conclusion that RL Russian pilots hardly ever use FD. I'm not saying "Don't use it", I'm just saying it's absolutely not necessary to use it, either. :smartass:

Also, the Russian doctrine of using trim is to progressively trim to a new attitude by adjusting the stick, clicking trim, adjusting some more, clicking trim, and so on and so forth, until the chopper is at the desired heading, attitude and/or altitude. RL videos of Mi-8 helos, as well as DCS videos of real pilots flying the DCS Mi-8 very clearly contain the constant "click click click click click" sounds of the trim. It's in their muscle memory to do it like this, I'd even say it's part of their DNA.

If this includes heading changes, in the Ka-50 it might be necessary to deactivate the heading hold channel of the SAS, or else the helo will sort of "struggle" with the pilot over the desired heading.

Now, the western doctrine is to keep the trim button pressed from the beginning of a maneuver all the way to the end, until the chopper has settled (in this case, it would not be necessary to disable the heading hold channel).

Ultimately, there is no right or wrong here. The key is to first understand how trim and the SAS channels interact. This is by far the most difficult thing about the Ka-50, because it can easily feel like the chopper is actively fighting the pilot's inputs - which it very well does. But only if the pilot doesn't understand the systems, and works against them.

Once a pilot understands this, he can have the helo do most of the flying, and that frees up a lot of capacities for operating other systems, which is actually the reason for all of this complicated autopilot stuff: the chopper's ability to do most of the flying to allow a single pilot to operate it as a war machine.

The second key, after understanding trim and SAS, is to find the way that one prefers, which could be repeated trims with only small control inputs in between, or it could be a single, long trim depression until settled, it could be activating Flight Director before a maneuver (or even all the time), and it could be deactivating certain SAS channels before a maneuver. Well, and ultimately it could also be to just override the AP authority by giving more input than the 20% that the AP has to work with.

(Well, and ultimately ultimately it could be do disable the SAS channels altogether, and I've actually read from someone advising to do so.)

The only time where SAS will be off is if you turn off the autopilot channels, or your hydraulics are shot out.

Again, good advice!

I'd just like to point out that IRL, to the best of my knowledge, it is forbidden to switch all SAS channels off in the Ka-50. I'm sure pilots train to fly without them, and there's even an emergency SAS disconnect button on the Cyclic stick, but the term "emergency" already gives an indication as to which situation this is to be used in. ;)

It's quite fun to fly the Ka-50 with all channels off, and it's good training for when the hydraulics get shot to pieces (which is like whenever the chopper takes damage :D). But in normal flight, they should always be on, with the exception of Alt Hold (pilot's discretion) and Heading Hold (pilot's discretion).

(Well, and ultimately ultimately it could be do disable the SAS channels altogether, and I've actually read from someone advising to do so.)

I'm feeling guilty here...

Yes, I'm one of those who recommend lerning to FLY the KA-50 by disabling the channels. That way you really learn how it flies and can concentrate on the flying without messing around with the rather complicated an sometime counterintuitive SAS/AP stuff. Nothing for the combat though, maybe training ranges, but not combat...

When you know how to fly it and know how it shall behave, then it's time to digg in on the SAS/AP.

Otherwise a very well composed post, Yurgon.