OFFSET POINTS AND BULLSEYE CALLS?

Hi all

This is a question particularly for the DEVs and BALTIC DRAGON:

Could you explain in detail how to use offset points and how to use them for BULLS calls and DEST?

I am trying to use them like it is explained in BD's great manual (page 155-157). It says:

QUOTE:

Another and most widely known example is the use of bullseye call to create an offset point in order to locate your target...

Creating offset using ρ/θ

Follow the following steps in order to create an offset point using ρ/θ:

1. Press the PREP button once.

2. Choose the waypoint you want to use as a reference for your waypoint by

introducing its number using the keypad (two digits).

3. Put the Parameter Selection Knob in ρ/θ position. The top left window of the

PCN will show: 0.00, and the right one will show 0.0.

etc.etc.

Using Offset Point as a destination

In order to use the offset point as your destination, you have to select the reference

Waypoint as your DEST, and then press the BAD button located to the right of

the Parameter Selector Knob. It will light up and the offset point will now be shown

as your destination both in the IDN and HUD. The ENC button will blink as long

as the is BAD selected to indicate that automatic change of waypoints is

unavailable.

UNQUOTE

Is this supposed to work as said?

I have done all this and tried really hard and it doesnt seem to work???

The HUD still shows the destination to the real WP and not the OFFSET and the HSI as weill...

I am just wondering if I am doing something studpid or if it is broken )or tnot functional yet?)

Thanks!

JEFX

Jojo perhaps you could have an input here?

Merci!!

JEFX

I will give it a try. :smilewink:

Just to be sure...are you trying to use that for Air to Ground ?

no I want to use it for AA

AWACS gives a BULLSEYE call and if possible, one could input it in the PCN as a Rho/Theta and have navigation cues in the HUD (as stated in the Offset section of BD's manual)????

if I am not clear we could PM en français if you want...

AWACS gives a BULLSEYE call and if possible, one could input it in the PCN as a Rho/Theta and have navigation cues in the HUD (as stated in the Offset section of BD's manual)????

That’s what I feared :lol:

Don’t waist your time messing with PCN for AA, this isn’t how it’s done.

(That’s the purpose of DO buttons around VTB, but not used that much and only “N” is active in DCS).

Select BE as DEST.

You will be able to read YOUR position with the back of the double arrow on IDN and range counter.

On VTB select BE with “N” key.

You will read the BE coordinates of your TDC on lower left corner.

Then use your your head (or IDN) to turn the aircraft into approximate direction of the contact of interest, then use TDC coordinates.

You can start to assess by 90°.

If you’re BE 120°, and :

-bogey is 020°, then turn north

-bogey is 310°, then turn north-east

-bogey is 220°, then turn west

...and check if your TDC can match AWACS coordinates :smilewink:

PS: go here and grab a French article I translated into English and added some graphical context (like maps).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3899104&postcount=67

Reference of the book:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3898693&postcount=65

I see, thanks Jojo.

Je vais essayer tout ça.

Great material!!

But still, offset points created in BAD mode (lets say for IP bombing) don't seem.to work as advertised in the manual? Or else I am doing something really stupid?

Merci!!

I see, thanks Jojo.

Je vais essayer tout ça.

Great material!!

But still, offset points created in BAD mode (lets say for IP bombing) don't seem.to work as advertised in the manual? Or else I am doing something really stupid?

Merci!!

I still have to try when pressing BAD.

But for IP bombing you don't need to press BAD.

In PCN, the DEST waypoint is Initial Point and BAD is the target.

On PCA choose PI.

Designate PI, when you over fly the PI, the system switch guidance to BAD.

This does work in game, or used to do (last time I check).

What doesn't work is release consent, bombs go right away. :(

I see, thanks Jojo.

Je vais essayer tout ça.

Great material!!

But still, offset points created in BAD mode (lets say for IP bombing) don't seem.to work as advertised in the manual? Or else I am doing something really stupid?

Merci!!

Just tried on latest Beta version, it works fine.

So you must be doing something really stupid :D

Set your waypoint (Bullseye, or any waypoint) as PREP,

Select BAD rho/theta on PCN Parameter Selector Knob, enter distance (< to 54 NM) on the left and bearing on the right in the top windows of the offset point

Select BAD Delta Alt and set elevation difference of offset point (in feet or meters) if needed.

Select your waypoint as DEST, it will show you distance and bearing to your waypoint on HUD and IDN

Click on BAD button, it will illuminate and HUD and IDN will show distance and bearing to the offset point. ENC will blink, and * will appear on the right of the HUD close to Waypoint/distance display.

The issues i can think of, is that you are not selecting the correct waypoint in PREP before setting offset data, you might have set it as DEST instead of PREP.

Or you are not setting the correct waypoint as DEST when you activate BAD button.

Or you are entering wrong value for Rho, as maximum value is 53,99 Nm. My bet is on this one, as bullseye call can be done with Hostile at very long range from BE :smilewink:

Thanks a lot Jojo and Steph21, I will try these tonight!

That all sounds so logical!

Thanks a million.

Just tried on latest Beta version, it works fine.

So you must be doing something really stupid :D

 

Set your waypoint (Bullseye, or any waypoint) as PREP,

Select BAD rho/theta on PCN Parameter Selector Knob, enter distance (< to 54 NM) on the left and bearing on the right in the top windows of the offset point

Select BAD Delta Alt and set elevation difference of offset point (in feet or meters) if needed.

 

Select your waypoint as DEST, it will show you distance and bearing to your waypoint on HUD and IDN

Click on BAD button, it will illuminate and HUD and IDN will show distance and bearing to the offset point. ENC will blink, and * will appear on the right of the HUD close to Waypoint/distance display.

 

The issues i can think of, is that you are not selecting the correct waypoint in PREP before setting offset data, you might have set it as DEST instead of PREP.

Or you are not setting the correct waypoint as DEST when you activate BAD button.

Or you are entering wrong value for Rho, as maximum value is 53,99 Nm. My bet is on this one, as bullseye call can be done with Hostile at very long range from BE :smilewink:

Thanks again for the VERY clear explanation. I just tried and I was indeed doing something really stupid: :D

I was trying to set the Rho and Theta and Alt of the BAD from the DEST waypoint instead of the PREP waypoint... Now it works great.

One only needs a real Waypoint in the navigation system in the viccinity of the target and then, one can input the offset (depending on either preplanned distance and bearing from that WP to the target or on the fly, say with indications from a JTAC!) Once the offset parameters are inputed, switching to BAD gives all normal navigation cues (HUD house, HSI arrow and even the little cross on the ground at the said point!)

Very good stuff!

thanks

I still have to try when pressing BAD.

 

But for IP bombing you don't need to press BAD.

In PCN, the DEST waypoint is Initial Point and BAD is the target.

On PCA choose PI.

Designate PI, when you over fly the PI, the system switch guidance to BAD.

 

This does work in game, or used to do (last time I check).

What doesn't work is release consent, bombs go right away. :(

Thanks!

And the release problem of the bombs IS a bug for now right?

Thanks!

And the release problem of the bombs IS a bug for now right?

Yes, it's a bug :(

ok thanks

I am having a blast learning this great plane! I must say that I was a bit tired of 'early access' state of F-18 and now F-16 with things not working and things implemented differently every week... I found in this module (recently) a stability of learning and a continuity of learning (thanks to Baltic Dragon) that suits me better... Too bad for CCRP...

I was going to start the campaign now, is this bug going to be a deal breaker in the campaing?

I am having a blast learning this great plane! I must say that I was a bit tired of 'early access' state of F-18 and now F-16 with things not working and things implemented differently every week... I found in this module (recently) a stability of learning and a continuity of learning (thanks to Baltic Dragon) that suits me better... Too bad for CCRP...

 

I was going to start the campaign now, is this bug going to be a deal breaker in the campaing?

I don’t think it will be a game breaker for the campaign.

Actually, if you mange to hit the trigger when release cure hit the FPM, you can put your bomb quite close to the target.

I prefer to use the French acronym for bombing, because using English leads to false expectations. It doesn’t work as US fighters.

The type of bomb determine the release profile and there is no way around it.

CCRP = CCPL in French.

CCIP = CCPI in French.

The Mirage 2000C navigation system isn’t accurate enough to allow blind bombing on coordinates, excepted CCPL + PI, but it is performing a navigation update on PI designation and you’re releasing less than 2mn after. This kind of bombing is for area target, not pin point accuracy.

On Mirage:

Low drag bombs are used to avoid a direct over fly over the target = CCPL.

You’re supposed to designate during the dive, and release during pull up.

You can use full aft stick to get maximum release range, but it will be more difficult to control wings level.

Dive between 10 to 30 degrees. The closer the better for accuracy but the more dangerous it is.

Don’t try to designate from 10Nm and then fly level until release. This is nonsense.

You can designate from medium/ high altitude dive, or after pop up.

High drag bombs are meant to be released level low and fast (like 200ft & >500kt).

Having waypoint or BAD on target is an help to find it, not mandatory to attack. You can visually attack anything at any time without PCN input.

So the choice of release profile depends on tactical choices and determine the type of weapon.

GBU-XX were late additions to the weapon system and kind of a hack = released like general purpose bombs.

———————————————————————————————————————————————

The Super Etendard used the same type of bombing system (CCPL/ CCPL + PI).

During the 80 Super Etendard performed a retaliation strike against some kind of training camp in Lebanon, after bombing against French soldiers.

The plan was low level ingress, pop up and CCPL.

But low clouds on target would have prevented CCPL target designation. So they went for plan B.

They turned back, and performed CCPL + PI attack.

It was prepared before launching of course.

So they performed designation on PI and pull up release a few Nm from target.

Or you can use it to attack highly defended targets, it would minimise exposure time.

But in the end, Mirage 2000C was meant to be Fox 1 Air Defence fighter. It isn’t the best tool to attack heavily defended ground targets.

Thanks, that clarifies a lot! Everything is in the word POINT DE LARGAGE... I guess you are right, all my CCRP background is from US fighters (all the way back to the great manual that came with Falcon 4.0)!

But I still struggle with high drag bombs in CCPI in the Mirage (Snake eyes)... No matter how steep I dive (35 degrees) and from how high I start (20000'), it takes forever (almost to the ground) before I can see a piper in my HUD???? That doesnt seem right?? And then how on earth can I do what you said:

'High drag bombs are meant to be released level low and fast (like 200ft & >500kt).'

???

Thanks again

Thanks, that clarifies a lot! Everything is in the word POINT DE LARGAGE... I guess you are right, all my CCRP background is from US fighters (all the way back to the great manual that came with Falcon 4.0)!

 

But I still struggle with high drag bombs in CCPI in the Mirage (Snake eyes)... No matter how steep I dive (35 degrees) and from how high I start (20000'), it takes forever (almost to the ground) before I can see a piper in my HUD???? That doesnt seem right?? And then how on earth can I do what you said:

'High drag bombs are meant to be released level low and fast (like 200ft & >500kt).'

 

???

 

Thanks again

High angle dive are for Low Drag bomb like MK-82. Not for MK-82SE where you should use a Level Delivery or a Low Angle delivery (up to 15°) at high speed. Low Angle delivery allows for better bomb penetration and make target identification easier but makes you more vulnerable to SAM or AAA.

Just try to fly toward your target at 500 KCAS and 300Ft with SnakeEyes in a level flight, and you will see how the reticle reacts in a level delivery profile at very low altitude :smilewink:

Enjoy the campaign :)

Great! Starting TODAY!!