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M2KC Slow Speed Handling


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The Razbam Mirage can do some slow speed stuff I thought deltas aren't supposed to be able to do, like maintain highly controllable flight and high maneuverability at 120kts.

 

The Razbam M2KC slow speed handling is at the very least questionable as far as realism. That's just my opinion from dogfighting a Mirage recently.

 

I'm sure everyone will jump to the dev's defense and say it's the most realistic flight model created based on data.

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At low speeds a delta wing requires a high angle of attack to maintain lift. A slender delta creates a characteristic vortex pattern over the upper surface which enhances lift. Some types with intermediate sweep have been given retractable "moustaches" or fixed leading-edge root extensions (LERX) to encourage vortex formation.

 

As the angle of attack increases, the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which energizes the flow on the upper surface of the wing, delaying flow separation, and giving the delta a very high stall angle. A normal wing built for high speed use typically has undesirable characteristics at low speeds, but in this regime the delta gradually changes over to a mode of lift based on the vortex it generates, a mode where it has smooth and stable flight characteristics.

 

The vortex lift comes at the cost of increased drag, so more powerful engines are needed to maintain low speed or high angle-of-attack flight.

 

The Mirage 2000C si also, an inherently unstable aerodinamic design in wich a human can fly it in help of the fly-by-wire, that's allow the aircraft has a particulary high maneuverability that in other old delta designs you can't achieve due the high control input and attention to the speed, AoA, power and such, that the pilot have to do, and also, the Mirage 2000 C can achieve a superb weight to power ratio with certain amount of fuel and ordinance.


Edited by Fortinero
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The Razbam Mirage can do some slow speed stuff I thought deltas aren't supposed to be able to do, like maintain highly controllable flight and high maneuverability at 120kts.

 

The Razbam M2KC slow speed handling is at the very least questionable as far as realism. That's just my opinion from dogfighting a Mirage recently.

 

I'm sure everyone will jump to the dev's defense and say it's the most realistic flight model created based on data.

 

It's the edge of the flight envelope, and it's difficult to get it right, for sure.

But IRL, during airshow demo (so light aircraft), the pilot performed 100kt fly by, with 25° AoA and 85% RPM only.

 

You seem to be new to the Mirage, so you may find this solo display training video interesting.

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It's the edge of the flight envelope, and it's difficult to get it right, for sure.

But IRL, during airshow demo (so light aircraft), the pilot performed 100kt fly by, with 25° AoA and 85% RPM only.

 

You seem to be new to the Mirage, so you may find this solo display training video interesting.

 

I'm not a mirage guy. I was just wondering why it absolutely outperforms the F15 at slow speeds. From what I've learned flying the F15 against the M2KC is that you never want to get into a slow fight with one especially if it's in the hands of someone that has some inclination of what they're doing.

 

Also I can fly circles around the Mirage and it can just lead turn me all day never running out of energy.


Edited by Heavy-D69420
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I'm not a mirage guy. I was just wondering why it absolutely outperforms the F15 at slow speeds. From what I've learned flying the F15 against the M2KC is that you never want to get into a slow fight with one especially if it's in the hands of someone that has some inclination of what they're doing.

 

Also I can fly circles around the Mirage and it can just lead turn me all day never running out of energy.

 

Each has its advantages and drawbacks.

 

But yes, the Mirage 2000 has good low speed handling characteristics.

 

High Alpha “The Mirage 2000 was legendary at its low speed high Alpha Passes -120 knots was pretty easy to fly.”

https://hushkit.net/2016/10/13/mirage-2000-pilot-interview-cutting-it-in-the-electric-cakeslice/

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According to real 2k pilots i have talked to, the aircraft has excellent low speed flight characteristics, with no / little vibration and very good handling. One said '' if you know you can fly it with 100 kts ''. Also they've said that the aircraft has sharp rolls and isn't shuffering from adverse yaw (like the rival f-16).

For sure, the M2000 isn't an energy dogfighter like the f-15.

On a side note, a basic characteristic of the aircraft is also that delta wing acts as a big airbrake in hard turns, forcing the enemy aircraft to overshoot. This have lead to a tragic midair collision in the 90's during a simulated DACT engagement (4 M2ks vs 4 f-16's ), where an f-16 (attacking aircraft) was in an attempt to achieve a gun kill, the M2000 made a hard brake and the f-16 tried to stay into the turn despite the small separation, resulting the collision (the vertical fin of the mirage smashed the canopy of the f-16 killing his pilot instantly). As a result our air force prohibited similar attacking maneuvers. Perhaps this is an area for potential improvement in our simulation.

Of course, without real life feedback it is very difficult to fine tune the FM


Edited by jaguara5
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Jaguara5, I tried BFM'ing you in the JustDogfight server last week I think. You're good, man. I don't think I had any kills on you.


Edited by Heavy-D69420
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No, i'm not good, I would say semi noobmegalol.gif.

Perhaps an area that Capt Smiley may look at are the Split - S maneuvers.

With instantaneous / temporarily use of G- limiter override switch currently we can achieve 28 deg. per sec. / 0.2 nm turn radious turns at ~400 kts.

I think that's little to good.

Attached is a tac file

Edit - Oops. I'm getting an invalid file message. What's that?

The file is working correctly in tac view.


Edited by jaguara5
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No, i'm not good, I would say semi noobmegalol.gif.

Perhaps an area that Capt Smiley may look at are the Split - S maneuvers.

With instantaneous / temporarily use of G- limiter override switch currently we can achieve 28 deg. per sec. / 0.2 nm turn radious turns at ~400 kts.

I think that's little to good.

Attached is a tac file

Edit - Oops. I'm getting an invalid file message. What's that?

The file is working correctly in tac view.

 

The system doesn't recognize .tac files.

Zip it :thumbup:

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No, i'm not good, I would say semi noob

The file is working correctly in tac view.

 

If you're semi noob then I must be noob.

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Thanks jojo!

So here is the file.

Currently, at 5000 ft, full fuel, clean configuration the ITR is 24 / 25 deg. at 350 kts.

With the use of the G - limiter, from my observations, we are still limited to the 25 deg TR but at a wider speed regiment. ex. starting a turn at 440kts, 25 deg is available from around ~ 420 kts at ~380kts the g - limiter is disengaged (to avoid to much speed bleed) and the '' normal '' 24 / 25 deg. TR kicks in. (see the third turn on one of the attached files).

The trick with the Split S is that we can increase further the turn capability to the above mentioned numbers.

Tacview- 9-DCS-m2000 .rar

Tacview-20180321-231051-DCS-m2000 TURN TEST NORMANDY .rar


Edited by jaguara5
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Thanks jojo!

So here is the file.

Currently, at 5000 ft, full fuel, clean configuration the ITR is 24 / 25 deg. at 350 kts.

With the use of the G - limiter, from my observations, we are still limited to the 25 deg TR but at a wider speed regiment. ex. starting a turn at 440kts, 25 deg is available from around ~ 420 kts at ~380kts the g - limiter is disengaged (to avoid to much speed bleed) and the '' normal '' 24 / 25 deg. TR kicks in. (see the third turn on one of the attached files).

The trick with the Split S is that we can increase further the turn capability to the above mentioned numbers.

 

It doesn't bother me at all. In the "other sim", which as been largely tested by real crews, the max ITR at 5000ft and corner speed is 27°/s (off course, it's peak, you can't sustain it).

 

And at 350kt CAS you're close to that corner speed.:thumbup:


Edited by jojo

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It doesn't bother me at all. In the "other sim", which as been largely tested by real crews, the max ITR at 5000kt and corner speed is 27°/s (off course, it's peak, you can't sustain it).

 

And at 350kt CAS you're close to that corner speed.:thumbup:

 

Hum I'm not able to reach 5000kt in my 2000, any tips ? :lol:

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I might be wrong, but wasn't the delta wing design created to allow high speed low drag, while still retaining low speed performance?

My DCS modding videos:

 

Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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I might be wrong, but wasn't the delta wing design created to allow high speed low drag, while still retaining low speed performance?

 

Delta wing or not isn't the end of the story. Look at the Mirage III, landing speed is 180kt+, light Mirage 2000 can go down to 140kt on final.

 

I would say high sweep angle gives good high speed performance.

But usually delta wing also gives low wing loading, combined with other characteristic (vortex at high AoA) give high lift at high AoA.

 

Fly By Wire and relaxed stability allowed to make the most out of it.

 

Mirage 2000 key requirements were high rate of climb, and high speed performances.

It was designed around available engine (M53).

The relax stability + delta wing allowed to make it lighter, with greater fuel volume (for given airframe weight) and to reach the above 2 requirements.


Edited by jojo

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I might be wrong, but wasn't the delta wing design created to allow high speed low drag, while still retaining low speed performance?
A big delta will be quite draggy at slow speed. It shouldn't perform as well in terms of controllability at high AoA as it does in game, but it's manageable.

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A big delta will be quite draggy at slow speed. It shouldn't perform as well in terms of controllability at high AoA as it does in game, but it's manageable.

 

Yes, I wasn't referring to drag, I should have said "low speed lift" instead of "low speed performance". As far as I know, delta wings should allow low drag at high speeds while retaining good lift at low speeds (as a general rule), but at the cost of higher drag caused by angle of attack, meaning more speed loss at turns...

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Modules I own so far:

Black Shark 2, FC3, UH-1H, M-2000C, A-10C, MiG-21, Gazelle, Nevada map

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It's the edge of the flight envelope, and it's difficult to get it right, for sure.

But IRL, during airshow demo (so light aircraft), the pilot performed 100kt fly by, with 25° AoA and 85% RPM only.

 

You seem to be new to the Mirage, so you may find this solo display training video interesting.

 

About that video...Im not an expert by any means but something I have tried A LOT of times in DCS with the m2000 is the very first pull up followed by the 1 and 1/4 rolls (starting at 17 seconds)...well I tried in several fuel configurations and even at 50% fuel, the pitch authority as well as roll performance at low speed (the pilot performs them at about 220knots) seems to be lower in DCS...simply I cant get close to what we can see in that video...in DCS both the sudden pitch and the rolls are much slower and have less autority at that given speed (about 220/230knt), even at 300knots the plane is less responsive than showed in the video...however, its performance seems too good at higher speeds than the real plane...its like the M2000 is a bit less maneuverable at low speeds than real life while at the same time its too good at high speed...maybe it should be degraded at power and high speeds while improved at low speeds. Here is a video showing this maneuver from outside:

 

 

EDIT: this is not an accurate indication, I know, but I just say that I have tried to make this in several configurations I consistently the plane seems to behave in a different way in DCS...not a big deal but just noticed this.


Edited by watermanpc

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