ECM Effectiveness against AI SAM

Greetings guys,

Really trying to shed some light on a subject I have combed over for hours on subreddits and ED forums and still have not really found any answers.

Are ECM pods even working in DCS against surface to air threats ? I have played, created missions watching the engagement ranges and ranges that a lock and am fired on from different SAMs as well as using the 410 pod on the SU-25T, as well as the pod on the AV-8B. Seems there is no difference between having the pod and it activated vs. having no pod. Am I just carting around dead weight by carrying these when running SEAD ?

Please anyone help me shed some light on this. Is it even coded on the game ? These pods have been around the Sim forever. Sad to see they do not work for me at all.

(I know they work against player controlled aircraft, that's not my question)

ECM does have an effect, yes. That's not really debatable, though doubtless people will.

The thing is it doesn't have much effect though. It somewhat reduces the effective range you can be targeted, at least by certain SAMs particularly the Buk I've used it against. Without ECM he will start firing at much greater distance than with it. This is with the Su-25T, though. I can't vouch for how other jammers work, or if it has changed or been broken since the last time I used it.

Note : This is related to burn through, afaik, which takes place at a set range. Thus, shorter range SAMs are probably not affected at all.

ECM does not work like ECM. It's a limited case use sort of thing, and not very useful usually

I have -at differing times in past release versions- tested out ECM effectiveness with 410 pod only though. I cannot be sure that things are the same but I can give a quick summary of what I found.

Against the 'best' systems -S-300 and Patriot- they were pretty useless, which is probably right considering you're carrying a relatively small device against a very powerfull ground based system.

Against such as Hawks and Buks, they seemed to allow you to get a little closer, but all that happened then is you had less time to react because you're closer to the launch site -which was not helpful I found -and the pod didn't in anyway I could see, decoy incoming arrows.

TBH I never thought to test them against SHORAD stuff, although I know someone who says that they are pretty useful against these -I need to test this out.

To give you a summation of how I currently use them -I don't bother! I prefer to save the weight and that certainly has saved my AC when I have used speed and manoeuvreing to successfully evade SAMs.

alright thanks Zuhov / Archer. Appreciate the feedback.

Against such as Hawks and Buks, they seemed to allow you to get a little closer, but all that happened then is you had less time to react because you're closer to the launch site -which was not helpful I found -and the pod didn't in anyway I could see, decoy incoming arrows.

Yeah, they don't really decoy anything. The circumstances I used them in were on a server that banned Kh-58Us, forcing me to use Kh-25s for DEAD. Without jammers, the Buks would engage me from 40+km away, WAY outside my launch range.

With the ECM, I would climb to 25,000ft or so, the Buk would eventually lock and fire, but a few seconds later I would get launch authorisation after which I could turn away and leave its engagement envelope. Rinse and repeat as needed. Eventually, I realised I could override the launch, and fire about the same time the Buk did, or perhaps just a bit before (from high altitude, the missile has a much greater effective range than the "list" number, I've hit targets over 30km away before).

So, basically, they're only useful if you're flying an Su-25T, specifically hunting radar guided SAMs, are not carrying Kh-58s, flying at high altitude, and know you won't be challenged by enemy interceptors lol Check the list before deciding to equip them or not lol

Greetings guys,

 

Really trying to shed some light on a subject I have combed over for hours on subreddits and ED forums and still have not really found any answers.

 

Are ECM pods even working in DCS against surface to air threats ? I have played, created missions watching the engagement ranges and ranges that a lock and am fired on from different SAMs as well as using the 410 pod on the SU-25T, as well as the pod on the AV-8B. Seems there is no difference between having the pod and it activated vs. having no pod. Am I just carting around dead weight by carrying these when running SEAD ?

 

Please anyone help me shed some light on this. Is it even coded on the game ? These pods have been around the Sim forever. Sad to see they do not work for me at all.

 

(I know they work against player controlled aircraft, that's not my question)

the real question you should ask ED is this?

is the combinative power of the Russian IADS system is truly being monitored. ECM pods are aspect based, but if you're flying blue and they are modeling the disclosed abilities of the combination effects of ground, awacs, and weapons system radars, you're not going to have any difference from a pod past a certain range. The Russian IADS is a web, it fills in blank spots. If this is being modeled to the tee, which I doubt, aspect jammer pods won't do anything for you. You're even gonna have a bad day in an sr-71 or lockheed RAM.

Now, another smart question is when are they going to model the russian EWS that can smack aegis boats into catatonia? :D

Good question!

I'm also very interested in this.

I am also interested in the difference between player and AI ECM (if any).

Jammers, from what I've read in the past are highly kept secrets. They just can't be modelled precisely as they are all secret(their capabilities).

In DCS, I would assume they are modeled a similar way to how the FC aircraft's radars are. Not a real simulation.

In the A-10, you can use them most effectively versus older SAMs (SAM1). I specifically remember, that I could get almost into gun range versus an SA-8 with a jammer.

Obviously the newer and stronger the SAM is, the lower effectiveness of the jammer. Although, it can still be effective vs. SA-15s and S6s.

In air to air with the FC-3 aircraft, you break through the Jammer around 21-22 miles, head on

Don't know if the jammer on the a-10 still works like I described, haven't used one in ages. Mostly, because I use manual CMS programs and you have to constantly be pressing on the jammer button for it to work ? (or at least that is my experience)

Lol at the poll, apparently 65% of the populace have no idea what they're doing. It's not debatable whether or not they have an effect. It just doesn't work like most people expect. It isn't a Romulan cloaking device and doesn't reduce their accuracy. It only reduces their effective range.

A cloaking device ? Depends when you’re talking about, and which SAM. The U.S. performed a major update of the Hawk system after their experience in the Iran - Iraq war, where Su-25 were pretty much immune to that system while using their ECM.

That's lovely, it has nothing to do with the game, though, which is what I'm referring to.

That's lovely, it has nothing to do with the game, though, which is what I'm referring to.

I don't see that you were specific about what you were referring to, but the bit in bold:

Lol at the poll, apparently 65% of the populace have no idea what they're doing. It's not debatable whether or not they have an effect. It just doesn't work like most people expect. It isn't a Romulan cloaking device and doesn't reduce their accuracy. It only reduces their effective range.

implies that some people (uneducated fools, I took from the tone of the post) have unrealistic expectations and that ECM isn't a cloaking device.

IRL, against specific versions, Soviet ECM were effectively a cloaking device against HAWK SAM.

As the SIM is supposed to reflect real life, for a period of time those people expecting a cloaking device could be said to have a fairly realistic expectation for it to work that well in the game against older HAWK batteries.

Expectations about how things should work in the game have something to do with the game, even if you're expecting everyone to understand your unwritten caveat that your own post only refers to how it's actually modelled, not how it perhaps should be...

I wasn't particularly intending to be insulting, so no hard feelings. Regardless, I was describing how it works in game. Obviously in-RL it does more than 'reduce effective range'.

The choices in the poll are yes/no whether it has effect. It does, which is why I thought it's funny people are answering no. It reduces range, but it does not make you invisible and does not make you harder to hit.

In the 60s/70s ECM made B-52s effectively untargetable by Sa-2s as well. The poll is not about that, though, it's about the game, so RL isn't really relevant.

I wouldn't describe it as a "cloaking device" as jets don't become invisible, you can see that there is someone out there jamming you.

The A-10 jammer pod has brought a lot of confusion to the community, even I am not 100% certain about it, but I stopped using it...

The A-10s jammer, doesn't work like the one on the F-15, you don't flick it on and it stays on, which is quite inconvenient, if you ask me.

I think it is what's called a "defencive jammer" ? Pretty much for it to work, you already have to be locked, by something, or the ECM pod will turn its self off (which it does anyway in manual mode)

Well, unless it is bugged now, it should have an effect on the SAMs launch range (until they burn trough the ECM( being so close that, the Radar has enough power in the wave, to burn trough the emitter))

Maybe, people just haven't been using it correctly (because of what I wrote above, doing it as if in an F-15)

But I believe that the ECM in DCS is not really simulated, it is brought down to the same principles with some "if" logic

P.S. Which makes me think, if they have gone trough with "simulating" these stuff with "if" (FC3 radar from what I've read on the F/A-18 section and ECMs), why can't it be done for IFF ("simulating" the way it works with "if"). I made a post long time ago, with a somewhat simplistic solution based on couple "if" logics.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of other major stuff going on right now with DCS, but we can hope that one day ^.^

It all depends on what the ECM in DCS takes into account. Radar Cross Section? Aspect? Radiated power of the radar system? Weather? PRI? PRF? Frequency?

In it's purest essence, a radar is nothing more than a radio sending out directional waves and listen for its return. Once a return is picked up, the radar will either start sending out more pulses (or even continuous wave) in order to find and track the target. Once it is tracking the targets can a missile be fired and guided as long as the radar is tracking the target.

Range gate pull-off, noise jamming, elevated noise floor, spot jamming can be simulated IF DCS takes into account the above mentioned parameters so that we can start to simulate some sort of jammer.

If that's not available, all that is left is, most likely, some kind of limitation of a parameter that DCS does use or a random number generator which either makes you win the lottery or eat a missile...

[...]

If that's not available, all that is left is, most likely, some kind of limitation of a parameter that DCS does use or a random number generator which either makes you win the lottery or eat a missile...

Or it just has hardcoded values (either on the SAM system or the Jammer) for range reduction (e.g. The ALQ-184 can reduce the range of SAMs by 20%). But that's just another guess.

Jammers definately make a difference though, as I noticed with the Viggen when I tried to take out the cruiser Pjotr Veliki with RB-04s. The ship is armed with the naval version of the S-300 IIRC and without a jammer I could not get in range for my RB-04s (25km) to strike it. Equipping a jammer did change this as I was able to get in range then before getting shot at.

You're even gonna have a bad day in an SR-71 or lockheed RAM.

Not even close...

Or it just has hardcoded values (either on the SAM system or the Jammer) for range reduction (e.g. The ALQ-184 can reduce the range of SAMs by 20%). But that's just another guess.

 

Jammers definately make a difference though, as I noticed with the Viggen when I tried to take out the cruiser Pjotr Veliki with RB-04s. The ship is armed with the naval version of the S-300 IIRC and without a jammer I could not get in range for my RB-04s (25km) to strike it. Equipping a jammer did change this as I was able to get in range then before getting shot at.

I would bet on hardcoded as I've been saying in my posts.

Lol at the poll, apparently 65% of the populace have no idea what they're doing. It's not debatable whether or not they have an effect. It just doesn't work like most people expect. It isn't a Romulan cloaking device and doesn't reduce their accuracy. It only reduces their effective range.

Not really. With a noise jamming you are still being shot at from maximum range with SAM systems like SA-6, but all that is lowered is a probability of a kill as if you at any point at max range change your flight path, the missile might run out of energy.

You are tracked, fired upon like normally, but without knowing your range. And that is gathered via command post by using multiple radar stations or other information gathering methods (like visual report via ground forces) when engagement range is ready. And then you are fired upon in silent attack mode (totally passive) and you have no idea what is coming at you.

Noise jamming is just one of the many methods those systems has, but that is what we have. A even more simplified system even.

In it's purest essence, a radar is nothing more than a radio sending out directional waves and listen for its return. Once a return is picked up, the radar will either start sending out more pulses (or even continuous wave) in order to find and track the target. Once it is tracking the targets can a missile be fired and guided as long as the radar is tracking the target.

That is just one of the many ways to launch and guide a missile.

What is every single missile system designed reason, is to get the missile near the target so the missile own proximity sensor (radar, laser, magnetic) detects the aircraft or it receives a radio command or impact fuse detects hit, and then explodes sending hundreds of metal fragments to general area of it.

Nothing else is required than get the missile near and blow it up.

A very simple system really. The real challenge is always to get the missile near that target.

If you have a target flying straight, you calculate either a interception point or you just follow target and that is it.

If you have a maneuvering target then things gets complicated as turning suddenly 60 degree so target doesn't pass you from left but from right, then your missile might have too little energy anymore to reach the target.

If you have a target jamming you, you can have difficulties to even find it as it can cause hundreds of false targets to very huge sector you are capable to scan so you don't know what is what and it takes time to find actual target. Or you can just deny some of the scanning values like range, or you can even not be visible what so ever to radar as it filters you out like you are nothing or your radar can be blocked by something big reflective in sky and not be able see through it. There is many kind counter measures that are causing trouble to calculate the location, speed and heading of the target.

And there are many ways to counter counter measurements. You can exactly launch a missile without a lock and wait it to get range before you start guidance when it is closer to see through your tracking. You can launch totally passively so missile doesn't even require any other source than jamming one. Launching a missile and just guiding it blindly without any other knowledge than where to go is one option too.

It is all very simple really. But if you don't have all the time in the world. If the target pop-up now and then, when you gain target position only every 10 seconds or even just every 2-4 seconds, all becomes far more difficult, especially when the target is ready to complete its task in 20-60 seconds before it is going away.

Flying low and fast is easy way to avoid getting shot at. But if there is even a single AA unit alerted of your approach at Mach 1.3, your day can be totally ruined even when you are exposed to a simple as ZU-23-2 that has turned cannons at your direction and just waiting you to appear behind trees from couple kilometers distance and flying almost over you.

We don't really have that functionality in DCS. We don't have passive systems, networked air defenses, general air alerts etc. We don't have radio communications where every single patrol with radio would report their spotted aircrafts positions and general headings, what leads that air defense knows to expect something to happen in a minute. General warning to expected target areas where you have every single one alarmed and prepared for a air attack and waiting the target to pop-up in their area.

Just flipping a ECM On ain't enough, it requires a lot of efforts and intelligence to know what is expected in target location and what CM and CCM tactics are best options.

At least we can enjoy from adding the ECM pods or turn On the ECM and hope we can benefit something from them...

Not even close...

after my return from Haifa, and seeing the reality of how effective the f35I is, I would agree with you.

they shot everything including the kitchen sink, over 1000 launches, not one hit. I also read recently about the overhaul of the hawk, which was only disclosed in Iraq 1, but happened out at "paradise rancH" during have blue sounding and studies conducted by the airforce.

most of what they did for the navy under Overhoulser is still deep classified a silver bullet, or a few.

The effectiveness of ecm jamming is related to the specific radar being jammed. To jam all radars is not possible. different radars run on different frequencies and newer radars have the ability to change frequencies (since Vietnam). The jammer is used to target a specific radar with known frequencies that it uses. Most self contained radar jammers in fighter aircraft have limited frequency range and power. Remember that ecm is used for self defense not attack (There are aircraft designed that specific roll) (to bad none are on DCS world). ECM jammers are used to overwhelm a radar (such as a self guided missile). Basically it's a signal to noise ratio. Jammers create noise, but if your aircraft has a strong signal return , the jammer becomes useless. And last but not least, as soon as you turned it active, you are now announcing your location to everyone. That is why there are aircraft built for this role so bombers and fighters can go do their job.