TM Cougar & CH magnetoresistive/ hall sensor kits

These will still be limited to 8 bit resolution when used plug in play into a CH board, right? How much are the CH pots going to cost? Definitely interested in a few. Same Thasiet from SimHQ forums.

Hi Thasiet,

How are you doing? Done with your project? :)

 

The cost is 20€ per piece and I have only one left at the moment.

 

Yeah if you use the standard CH mainboard there is no change from the 8 Bit resolution. But I still plan to make a higher res mainboard in the near future. However it is not yet clear based on which microcontroller. The STM32F1 seem interesting, so I have ordered a few.

 

My next project will be a combi-shield usable in the CH Combat/Fighterstick + Pedals + Throttle based on the 32 Bit ARM STM32F1 controllers also used in Drones. That microcontroller is much more powerful than the Arduinos and has internal 12 Bit ADCs. I plan to make that one open source and upload it to OSH Park. These sensors would be a perfect fit for such an upgrade from 8 to 12 Bit, as the standard CH pots just dont cut it at 12 Bit.

Edited October 6, 2018 by rel4y

Hi rel4y,

 

Fascinating work you're doing here! I was thinking about whether I could upgrade the pots in my CH Holy Trinity, and apparently I can... :) Following with interest!

 

I was wondering about the board upgrade you mentioned; Would it still work with the Control Manager Software? Feels like it wouldn't, but that's just a hunch.

These will still be limited to 8 bit resolution when used plug in play into a CH board, right?

 

The (limited) resolution of CH's is due their ("1999") USB controller, not due use pot - what are not resolution liming factor.

 

An workaround for this issue is install a new USB controller inside CH's for handle only their axes, leaving the original USB controller for be able to program buttons in Manager.

 

In this way will be no more possible make "cheat" with axes in Manager, but have improved resolution. BRD/Baur did some custom versions using CH's in that way.

An workaround for this issue is install a new USB controller inside CH's for handle only their axes, leaving the original USB controller for be able to program buttons in Manager.

 

In this way will be no more possible make "cheat" with axes in Manager, but have improved resolution. BRD/Baur did some custom versions using CH's in that way.

 

Hey Sokol, I didnt know that. Do you have a link perhaps? I plan to do a board which allows you to plug the connectors of all the CH devices straight in and makes use of their button matrix. Since CH uses 0.1 in connectors I can just put a bunch of header pins on there. Or maybe I find these male connectors somewhere.

 

Hi rel4y,

 

Fascinating work you're doing here! I was thinking about whether I could upgrade the pots in my CH Holy Trinity, and apparently I can... Following with interest!

 

I was wondering about the board upgrade you mentioned; Would it still work with the Control Manager Software? Feels like it wouldn't, but that's just a hunch.

 

Thanks! Well no, it wouldnt work with CH Control Manager. But the CH manager would be adequately replaced by some equally powerful manager software (as eg MMJoy).

Edited October 6, 2018 by rel4y

Are only some few pictures buried in some Aviasim.ru forum topic...

 

But what Baur did was install MagRez on CH X, Y axes, wire this sensors in a new USB circuit inside fitted inside (GVL224 or Red Baron, don't remember), and keep buttons/HAT plugged in CH original circuit. The stick now have twp USB cables and is see as two "joysticks" by Windows/Games.

The (limited) resolution of CH's is due their ("1999") USB controller, not due use pot

 

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of the software... If it assumes that it's only ever going to receive values within the 8-bit range then making it 12/16-bit might well cause overflow problems. While I'd love to improve my devices as much as I can I'd be loathed to lose the excellent software. Perhaps the pot upgrade but sticking with the original controller is a good middle ground.

 

Thanks for your input.

Hi Thasiet,

How are you doing? Done with your project? :)

 

The cost is 20€ per piece and I have only one left at the moment.

 

Yeah if you use the standard CH mainboard there is no change from the 8 Bit resolution. But I still plan to make a higher res mainboard in the near future. However it is not yet clear based on which microcontroller. The STM32F1 seem interesting, so I have ordered a few.

 

 

I think the project was to convert my other grips to work with my T-50 and also with a modified FFB2. I've more or less abandoned that due to

 

1) I like my F22 grip the best of all of them and it has the most buttons

2) I've gorilla taped my F22 grip to my T-50 base to help lock down the rotation and to reinforce the flexy 3d printed tailpipe. Thus, switching grips will be a PITA and I'm also worried about the connector. Best to just leave it alone

3) heavy grips with lots of buttons really not a great match for the FFB2 base, at least not before I turbocharge the motors.

 

Nope, new project is to improve upon the VKB Gladiator forumula with a better all-in-one:

 

 

So that's a three pack of two way momentary toggles in the base now, and gonna have a couple of encoders and bunch of panel mount pushbuttons in before the end. The rudder pedals are half of an F-22 Pro gimbal and the base plate. The lashed on mending brace is just a proof of concept. I think I want to attach a big coupling nut to the gimbal and then screw a big lag bolt in each side for the pedals, that way I can have reasonable feet spacing but break it down to pack small...

 

Since it's going to run on mmjoy2 I'm not worried about the 8bit resolution of the CH board's adc, just wanted to know because I thought I might want to upgrade my Fighterstick as well, but not at that price. Probably still interested in at least a couple though whenever you have another batch in.

 

But I should figure out how to make my own cheapo hall sensor pots like these mega mozg ones:

 

 

 

Can anyone kindly link me to whatever resources there are vis a vis 1) what magnets to use and 2) how to set up the rotation and calibrate, especially in cases like the one in the photo where it looks like the magnet has to be glued into place? Thanks.

1 - Diametrically magnetized Neodium magnets rings.

 

2 - Initial calibration is done by twist the sensor legs until find magnet center position and/or twisting the magnet before glue in position - keeping gimbal mechanism in center position.

 

An tedious, length trial and error method in what just your minor fingers pressure or oven when you breathing deep frustrated will be registered by HALL sensor messing your calibration attempt. :D

 

BTW - CH Gimbal is not much suitable for this kind of DIY HALL sensor assembly, because is very "flimsy" with mechanical play, that make find sensor center more difficult, you need install bearings in pivots for improve this.

 

That device at left of CH-FCS B8 is a rudder pedal?

A very minimalist design. :)

Edited October 7, 2018 by Sokol1_br

So that's a three pack of two way momentary toggles in the base now, and gonna have a couple of encoders and bunch of panel mount pushbuttons in before the end.

 

Good job mate! I will add a bunch of encoders etc to my CH Pro Throttle as well.

 

Since it's going to run on mmjoy2 I'm not worried about the 8bit resolution of the CH board's adc, just wanted to know because I thought I might want to upgrade my Fighterstick as well, but not at that price. Probably still interested in at least a couple though whenever you have another batch in.

Yeah, MMJoy rocks! :thumbup: Well, I cant really make them cheaper. The 3D printing cost at Shapeways is 36% of that alone. But actually with my whole modding endouvors I spent over 600€ total in the last years, trying to get stuff right and 3D printing prototypes. Shapeways is really costing me a crap ton... If I sell enough Sensors I will buy a Cetus 3D printer from that money. :cry:

 

But I should figure out how to make my own cheapo hall sensor pots like these mega mozg ones:

 

Can anyone kindly link me to whatever resources there are vis a vis 1) what magnets to use and 2) how to set up the rotation and calibrate, especially in cases like the one in the photo where it looks like the magnet has to be glued into place? Thanks.

Listen to Sokol, the gimbal is not made for this type of mod and hall sensors are a real hassle. I avoid them like the plague nowadays. There is a reason why eg Simundza of MFG got rid of all hall sensors in his Crosswind pedals quickly and switched to programmable sensors.

But if your in for a bit of DIY work you could break apart the CH pots and glue a magnet to the axle, then stick a hall sensors to the back like in the picture from MegaMozg. However then the real fun begins, calibration. :doh:This will probably be the easiest method. I chose to 3D print the whole pot because it was the best option for pnp imho.

 

Btw, what could these possibly be for? :music_whistling:

 

Good job mate! I will add a bunch of encoders etc to my CH Pro Throttle as well.

 

 

Maybe not after shipping to Germany, but this seemed like a fairly insane price on Alps encoders. I may go back for a second order :lol:

 

Well, I cant really make them cheaper. The 3D printing cost at Shapeways is 36% of that alone. But actually with my whole modding endouvors I spent over 600€ total in the last years, trying to get stuff right and 3D printing prototypes. Shapeways is really costing me a crap ton...

 

 

Yeah definitely not suggesting what you're doing is overpriced in any way. Noh, the value for value proposition is pretty unmissable here. It's just while it would be deeply gratifying to fix the obnoxious but in no way fatal flaw with my Fighterstick, it would also cost literally ten times the $5 USD I paid a thrift store for it, to perfect a stick I no longer even use now that I am blessed with a Virpil T-50. Also I'm on the precipice of plowing all my savings and then some in pursuit of a commercial pilot's license, so, ya know, there's that. Even still, I'm sure I'm down for at least a couple to slap into that new "what the hell is he building in there?" project.

 

 

BTW - CH Gimbal is not much suitable for this kind of DIY HALL sensor assembly, because is very "flimsy" with mechanical play, that make find sensor center more difficult, you need install bearings in pivots for improve this.

 

I accept and trust what you're saying, it's just for all the bad rap CH gimbal gets, it's really a very well made version of the exact gimbal design that's good enough for even the most expensive radio controlled aircraft. I'm just struggling to imagine how it could be inappropriate for a hall sensor when whatever jive assed engineering goes into a T16000M or Saitek gadget can handle it, but I guess the way the pot is a structural part of the gimbal in the CH must be a big part of the explanation.

 

 

That device at left of CH-FCS B8 is a rudder pedal?

A very minimalist design.

 

Actually feels surprisingly similar to my VKB pedals. I may leave it like the seesaw that it currently is, or I may build a simple hinged pedal on top of that to press the seesaw bars down, not sure yet.

 

I accept and trust what you're saying, it's just for all the bad rap CH gimbal gets, it's really a very well made version of the exact gimbal design that's good enough for even the most expensive radio controlled aircraft. I'm just struggling to imagine how it could be inappropriate for a hall sensor when whatever jive assed engineering goes into a T16000M or Saitek gadget can handle it, but I guess the way the pot is a structural part of the gimbal in the CH must be a big part of the explanation.

 

 

Yes, CH gimbal work well for the job that was designed, in this gimbal the potentiometer is part of gimbal - if remove pot gimbal fall apart, because what keep parts together is the potentiometer pole.

 

The pot is not bolted to gimbal structure, but is keep "floating" there, what contribute for pot last longer.

 

Then the play in mechanism and flimsy parts is not issue for pot, because their function is just turn the pot, but will became issue when you fit a high sensible sensor there, if the magnet oscillate when turning will create spurious reading in the sensor. Why is advisable install bearings in pivots.

 

T.16000M/Saitek gimbals use different design, a kind of "ball-join" and have their share of play.

Maybe not after shipping to Germany, but this seemed like a fairly insane price on Alps encoders. I may go back for a second order :lol:

 

Good price. I have a bunch of chinese copies laying around. At least they work so far, but I am curious for how long.. :music_whistling: Recently I also bought a bunch of "high quality" OpAmps from China. High quality my ass, they were so blatantly fake and crappy it hurt my head. Instantly opened a ticket on AliExpress and b**** better have my money! :mad: I think in future I will stick with Mouser for proper high quality, although I must say AliExpress has a good customer refund policy.

 

I accept and trust what you're saying, it's just for all the bad rap CH gimbal gets, it's really a very well made version of the exact gimbal design that's good enough for even the most expensive radio controlled aircraft. I'm just struggling to imagine how it could be inappropriate for a hall sensor when whatever jive assed engineering goes into a T16000M or Saitek gadget can handle it, but I guess the way the pot is a structural part of the gimbal in the CH must be a big part of the explanation.

Yes, CH gimbal work well for the job that was designed, in this gimbal the potentiometer is part of gimbal - if remove pot gimbal fall apart, because what keep parts together is the potentiometer pole.

 

I think Sokol is being a bit harsh on the CH gimbals. They do a good job, but as said rely heavily on their sturdy pot axis which are simultaneously the gimbal pivot points. That is why you need to somehow either keep that sturdy axis in there and modifiy the original pot, or replace the axis with an equally strong and low tolerance part. -> eg 3D print with a ball bearing :P

 

Hey Sokol, do you by chance know which Saitek products use the same pots as the Saitek Pro Flight Pedals? I had two pots in my Pro Flight Pedals fail on me, which is a ridiculous. I did fix them with a hall sensor, but thats a pretty ghetto fix tbh. See here: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27201

 

The Combat Flight Rudders seem to have the same pots. I remember there being troubles with the X52s as well, was it the same type of pots?

Edited October 9, 2018 by rel4y

Saitek use physically similar but not the same pot used in CH.

 

CH use CTS HP100 - 30º of "effective electric angle" pot's, 100K.

 

Saitek's use Polyshine* - 32º of "effective electric angle" pot's, 50K (pot's "K"value is not too important, but if possible keep the same).

 

Due differences in pot pole diameter, length, "D" recess probable can't use one for replace another without some adaptations in pot and/or gimbal.

 

AFAIK - Polyshine don't sell for end users and "joystick pot" (the one with that limited "effective electric angle") don't interest for electronic part stores (e.g. Digikey, Mouser...).

 

Related topic: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=160247

Ok, good news. I am done on the CH hatswitches and uploaded them to Shapeways. Obviously still untested, but I am pretty sure they are good. I will print the hats in smooth fine detail plastic and paint them afterwards.

 

 

 

The prototype Saitek pot 3D models are also done. I made 3 different versions, two of them with snap fits and one that needs to be screwed down. Lets see which works best. Here is one with snap fits.

 

 

 

Plans for the next weeks are designing a CH and Saitek Flight Pedals upgrade mainboard with 10-12 Bits res and a dual stage trigger for CH Fighterstick/Combatstick.

Edited November 25, 2019 by rel4y

Re4ly

 

Why you don't make a version of this "pot" with KMZ-41 that have analog output and so can be used in original controllers of Cougar, CH's, Saitek's.

Re4ly

 

Why you don't make a version of this "pot" with KMZ-41 that have analog output and so can be used in original controllers of Cougar, CH's, Saitek's.

 

I think you are confused Sokol. :huh: It does! It has completely analog outputs. It replaces the original sensors 1 to 1, pnp. So all my Cougar, CH and Saitek sensors can and should be used with the original controllers.

 

The only digitally communicating sensor is the TLE5011 in the Cougar Throttle sensor, that one can only communicate with my USB standalone adapter.

 

I just want to make new higher res boards for those who would like to upgrade their original 8 Bit controllers to 10 or 12 Bit.

 

 

 

 

PS: I have soldered up the orders of the last couple of days and should be able to ship by tomorrow evening. The two CH sensors are still available, so feel free to PM me.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by rel4y

OK, but would the magnets be fixed in this solution or I'd have to mount them myself?

 

Hey mate, I think I got something for you. I drew up a quick sketch of an analog hall sensor mod for the Cougar Throttle. This one is based on one of my earliest tries with the Cougar. Now as you may have realized I have a distinct antipathy for hall sensors, but here you go:

 

 

What you would need is an Allegro 1324 hall sensor and a 4x4mm neodymium magnet cube, best N52 or above. Calibration involves only moving the hall sensor on one axis, so it is already miles improved over these expensive Cougar hall sensor kits other people offer. :smilewink:

How far you insert the hall sensor in the slot sets your maximum range, the closer the larger the voltage range you can achieve. If you are going too close to the magnet you will actually lose range. So find the sweetspot or settle shortly before that and calibrate the last bit in Software. The latter is how the manufacturers do it. Finally put a piece of tape on the back to avoid shorting the hall sensor legs on the metal mount.

 

I will upload the sketch to Shapeways and you can order it. Full disclosure, I think it would work on the Cougar Joystick as well. So I may be cannibalizing my own sensors here somewhat. But if you like real precision work then go for my magnetoresistive kits. Believe me, the ball bearing MR sensors are a league of their own! :thumbup:

Edited October 10, 2018 by rel4y

Great, thanks for your efforts, I'll check it out. As I said, I wouldn't mind the magnetoresistive kit, but as I only need it for the throttle (for the tick I already got used Uber and FSSB R1 gimbals) and as this kit is not compatible with the original electronics, it won't work with Target.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Dudikoff

Hey guys,

Sorry for not responding. I got food poisoning and was knocked out of action for a few days. I am just recovering, so Ill have to keep it on the slow side for a few days.

 

 

Here is the promised Throttle Hall sensor which doesnt require my standalone adapter, but you will have to buy two extra parts and calibrate it yourself. Just to make it clear again, except for the Cougar Throttle sensor all my other sensors are plug and play and work with the original controllers and software.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/KTB6AUAJX/cougar-throttle-hall-sensor-mount?optionId=70678300&li=shop-inventory

 

What you will need is a N52 (or above) 4mm cube magnet and an Allegro 1324 SIP hall sensor. You can find these on ebay or much cheaper somewhere else. In electronics stores you can usually get them for under 2$. However here are some ebay links for the lazy: :smilewink:

 

Allegro 1324 SIP hall sensor on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Allegro-Microsystems-A1324LUA-T-Linear-Hall-Effect-Sensor-5V-3-Pin-SIP/163123980014?epid=730000234&hash=item25faf266ee:g:OykAAOSwZrdbNlBS:rk:1:pf:0

 

4mm cube N52 magnet on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Strong-Magnets-4mm-Cube-Neodymium-Rare-Earth-Block-Magnetic-N52/223137027440?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D54463%26meid%3Dd0547255d5b44bf49feae78dd0d13100%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D223137027440&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226

 

Assembled it will look like this. Finally put a piece of tape on the back to avoid shorting the hall sensor legs on the metal mount.

 

 

Here is my current progress on the CH conversion PCBs. It turns out is incredibly difficult to measure the distance between hats precisely. What I did was basically trace the cutouts with a pencil, then mark their middle points and measure the distance with a caliper. If anybody has an idea on how to measure it more precisely please give me a hint. The plan is to install an ALPS analog stick as slew sensor (on the Gameport version) of the Throttle. The USB version does have an analog stick, albeit its not great. The second PCB is for converting a Combatstick into a Fighterstick. Dual trigger is coming as well, I already have a plan for it.

Edited October 16, 2018 by rel4y

MR Sensor for CH throttle

 

I just installed this MR sensor https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3645254&postcount=25

in my CH Throttle Pro to replace the crappy

analog one.

Although no experience in this field the

replacement was straight forward.

It is as announced "plug and play".

CH Manager recognized it right away,

so did DCS.

 

Cheers

 

ps: rel4y, recommend to introduce your

product on the CH Products forum.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Merkin

I think you are confused Sokol. :huh: It does! It has completely analog outputs. It replaces the original sensors 1 to 1, pnp. So all my Cougar, CH and Saitek sensors can and should be used with the original controllers.

 

The only digitally communicating sensor is the TLE5011 in the Cougar Throttle sensor...

 

OK, but because the above guy want keep their TQS compatible with Tm software and you suggest TLE5011 plus USB adapter and not an analog output sensor ("pno" replacement) for TQS, what will solve their problem. :thumbup:

I just installed this MR sensor https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3645254&postcount=25

in my CH Throttle Pro to replace the crappy

analog one.

Although no experience in this field the

replacement was straight forward.

It is as announced "plug and play".

CH Manager recognized it right away,

so did DCS.

 

Cheers

 

ps: rel4y, recommend to introduce your

product on the CH Products forum.

Spikes (jittering) in the Z axis is gone?

 

It 's a silly question, but that's the point to replace the pot so it must be clear.:thumbup:

I just installed this MR sensor https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3645254&postcount=25

in my CH Throttle Pro to replace the crappy

analog one.

Although no experience in this field the

replacement was straight forward.

It is as announced "plug and play".

CH Manager recognized it right away,

so did DCS.

 

Cheers

 

ps: rel4y, recommend to introduce your

product on the CH Products forum.

 

Thank you for posting your impressions mate! Will have a look at their forums. :)

 

OK, but because the above guy want keep their TQS compatible with Tm software and you suggest TLE5011 plus USB adapter and not an analog output sensor ("pno" replacement) for TQS, what will solve their problem. :thumbup:

 

Yeah, but then I made this to solve the problem. :D

 

 

Like I said earlier I cant fit the PCB of the other sensors in the Throttle sensor mount, it is just too large. And making a new PCB layout solely for the Cougar Throttle is not going to be cost/time effective tbh. Maybe Ill do it in anyway in the future.

 

Spikes (jittering) in the Z axis is gone?

 

It 's a silly question, but that's the point to replace the pot so it must be clear.

 

It stopped the spiking for me at least.

Edited October 16, 2018 by rel4y

At last I have finished the CH Throttle Slew sensor. The gameport CH Pro Throttle does not have an analog stick, so I made a nice slew stick in place of the index finger hat. However, theoretically that slew fits in all hat slots. I am really looking forward to this one. This is gonna be one big fat overhaul of my CH Pro Throttle. :D

 

Big shoutout to Deltaalphalima1 who send me the STEP file of the ALPS analog stick, without which I couldnt have modeled this. :thumbup: