Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

God, you guys are very hung up on this gun thing... Here's deal and then I'm done. People are making claims that are unsubstantiated. I've provided citations and experimental evidence to back up my claims. So if anyone feels that kills should be obtained with guns against a fully armed mirage, then drop the argument for a more capable missile... because surely if you should be getting gun kills (as an experienced Su-27 driver), then how come you can't be successful with SARH and IR missiles against a human? I will concede that it seems the 27R and T are easier spoofed by chaff, if you look at the tacview file, you'll see the missile oscillate and divert from the target when he's spamming countermeasures... but also he is spamming his countermeasures. To be fair here, no one has provided evidence to the contrary or any other information (i.e. ED bug report?). Literally, the only counterpoints are empty and negative, and the critiques are borderline personal. There is a saying, "never fire in anger," and I would suggest the same be true posting in an online debate. Now if we want to talk numbers I would be more than willing to setup a server for running very controlled experiments with another person at some point this week. However, I think that's unnecessary as, once again, there has been no evidence presented suggesting the 530 is a magic missile (pun intended) or that the 27 R/T is so under powered that the 17 extra missiles the su-27 carries can't compensate for it. In closing, if anyone would like to post a track or acmi themselves, I'm sure the evidence would be welcome. Guys, if this is how we treat newcomers, we wont have newcomers... provide evidence, make your point, but don't take it or make it personal.

It always seems like you grasp on to one thing. Frostie and I are saying you can easily kill the AI with guns and that is why it is very important to do testing with missiles against humanity players. Of course we are not saying go after a fully armed human mirage with guns. You'd die. The AI in DCS is not a substitute for human controlled aircraft.

However, I think that's unnecessary as, once again, there has been no evidence presented suggesting the 530 is a magic missile (pun intended) or that the 27 R/T is so under powered that the 17 extra missiles the su-27 carries can't compensate for it.

Hi,

stop me if I'm wrong but you seem to be fairly new to this PvP thing, let me try to help you a bit. I'm not a pro but play PvP exclusively, and my point is also just common sense really.

No ammount of bad missiles will compensate you if you are fighting a superior missile. We are flying a SARH setup here so if you have the longer arm, and shoot first (with good PK/parameters) the ammount of missiles fired by the Flanker have 0 impact on the outcome. The ones fired in BVR will never get to the Mirage and the ones who could get there will lose the target because the 530 got there first.

Ammount of missiles only increases possible number of engagements/playtime.

provide evidence, make your point, but don't take it or make it personal.

I'm sorry but where is it personal?

I made valid points and provided evidence that the AI is not worthy for discussion. If you don't have an answer to the contrary please don't try and turn the discussion on its head by calling foul.

There is no bug report needed as there is no bug, i've already stated I don't have a problem with this setup but generally it's harder for newcomers to choose Flanker.

I'm sorry but where is it personal?

I made valid points and provided evidence that the AI is not worthy for discussion. If you don't have an answer to the contrary please don't try and turn the discussion on its head by calling foul.

There is no bug report needed as there is no bug, i've already stated I don't have a problem with this setup but generally it's harder for newcomers to choose Flanker.

To clarify, the encounter's I've won against the R-27R/T have been when I (mirage) was ~200 knots faster than the opponent. Immediately the chat blows up "530's are OP" "27 is trash" so on and so forth... I am merely suggesting that a track be provided where clearly the Su-27 had an advantageous firing position, and failed. Your point about AI is valid... so instead setup your mission to better meet the parameter you're trying to test (i.e. spawn the mirage at 7nm out... if he fires at 5nm and you're testing for 7nm then readjust the starting spawn to be 9nm away assuming a 2nm window for lock up, so on and so on). Or like i said, I'm willing to host anyone who would like to test these things out... I am interested in the truth as well... Showing a mig-15 defeating a mirage is like disproving climate change with a local weather report... For the very last time, evidence of a Su-27 in an advantageous situation failing with an R-27T/R would be a great way to support your argument for the ER.

For the very last time, evidence of a Su-27 in an advantageous situation failing with an R-27T/R would be a great way to support your argument for the ER.

Not sure how many times you want me to make this clear, i'm not advocating adding ERs, where are you getting that idea from?

I don't need to prove to you that 530D is superior to R-27R it has been done to death already just take my word for it or better still use tacview and test yourself.

To put it in simple terms to you, a mach 4.5 missile (530D) will always beat a mach 3.5 missile (R-27R) to the target with equal starting.

Showing a mig-15 defeating a mirage is like disproving climate change with a local weather report...

I thought it was pretty clear that killing the AI be it MiG15 or Flanker is as you say with weather and climate etc.

To clarify, the encounter's I've won against the R-27R/T have been when I (mirage) was ~200 knots faster than the opponent. Immediately the chat blows up "530's are OP" "27 is trash" so on and so forth... I am merely suggesting that a track be provided where clearly the Su-27 had an advantageous firing position, and failed.

No this below is what you stated and still stand by it seems.

there is no reason the SU-27 should ever loose to a mirage.

Senaki might be bugged. We took out all base defenses and bunkers and it still showed 100%. Even called a bomber and still nada.

Destroyed Senaki AF tonight. Was not showing any damage on website, but was showing under attack. Multiple AI bombers called in, Viggen runs, fully loaded A10 with 11 kills and still 100% on website and CTLD menu. Also it was not showing in the correct PAK in the CTLD menu...shows in PAK3 when it should be PAK5.

 

EDIT: 3rd bomber was called in and notification stated it found no targets so it was going to carpet bomb. Still showed 100% repaired.

As I suspected - Senaki was in the config twice which is why it was acting weird. Will fix and restart the round in an hour or so at next restart :)

Thanks for reporting!

As I suspected - Senaki was in the config twice which is why it was acting weird. Will fix and restart the round in an hour or so at next restart :)

 

Thanks for reporting!

I know this may seem minuscule but any chance for the restart we can get the differentiating camos back like they were on the M2k's? Iraqi for Red and French for blue?

For the very last time, evidence of a Su-27 in an advantageous situation failing with an R-27T/R would be a great way to support your argument for the ER.

Ok me old chum even though you have everything at your disposal to test this I've done it for you.

The Su27 has a 240 knot and 6500ft advantage over the Mirage, I've set it up so the Mirage and Flanker don't crank just continue forward to show only missile performance.

R27R vs 530D.zip.rar

Can you armchair weapons experts take your pissing contest somewhere else? I just had to read through two pages of garbage to look for things actually relative to the server.

I know this may seem minuscule but any chance for the restart we can get the differentiating camos back like they were on the M2k's? Iraqi for Red and French for blue?

Sorry no time for map, slot or skin changes

Hopefully Sunday afternoon unless another of us is free before then.

Map reset :thumbup:

Can you armchair weapons experts take your pissing contest somewhere else? I just had to read through two pages of garbage to look for things actually relative to the server.

I hardly think discussing things pertaining to balance of BF is a pissing contest. You've been chiming in providing nothing, until last page with ciribob, helpful to the conversation. It's just been you complaining and trying to belittle people.

People are providing examples and trying to explain why something needs to change. Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to be a dick. Frostie and even Phoenix, have been giving examples. Just because it's a heated argument doesn't mean it's wrong. People are passionate about their side and why they think it should be a certain way. That's both sides.

This is a topic that's needs to be discussed and it's nice to see it getting traction one way or the other.

Sorry no time for map, slot or skin changes

 

Hopefully Sunday afternoon unless another of us is free before then.

 

Map reset :thumbup:

Ciribob, on a side note from the 530 discussion, you're doing an awesome job. It's great to get feedback for things and have a vocal presences on why things are certain ways and weather other things are being looked at.

I think I speak for the entire community. It's been awesome having you here.

I hardly think discussing things pertaining to balance of BF is a pissing contest. You've been chiming in providing nothing, until last page with ciribob, helpful to the conversation. It's just been you complaining and trying to belittle people.

 

People are providing examples and trying to explain why something needs to change. Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to be a dick. Frostie and even Phoenix, have been giving examples. Just because it's a heated argument doesn't mean it's wrong. People are passionate about their side and why they think it should be a certain way. That's both sides.

 

This is a topic that's needs to be discussed and it's nice to see it getting traction one way or the other.

You're not talking about balance, you're talking hyperbole and casting instances of your failures onto being a fault of the game design. Furthermore, you're all arguing with eachother as if each of you personally have control over what gets added or changed on the server in the name of the ~600 other people that play on it.

Have this discussion in the proper place, in a proper format, with the proper outcome, and provide feedback on the thread as a request on the thread like every other sensible person is doing.

You're not talking about balance, you're talking hyperbole and casting instances of your failures onto being a fault of the game design. Furthermore, you're all arguing with eachother as if each of you personally have control over what gets added or changed on the server in the name of the ~600 other people that play on it.

 

Have this discussion in the proper place, in a proper format, with the proper outcome, and provide feedback on the thread as a request on the thread like every other sensible person is doing.

This request was put forward but people (like yourself now) chose to disrespect the pilots flying Flankers by claiming it's all their own fault. Belittling is what causes the angst and that is what you're doing right now, maybe you should make a separate thread with your request and show us the way.

Someone say balance? Lets all just fly Mirages.

That poor mi8

You will notice all the flankers have lazerbeams attached to them. ;DDDDD

Um, there are no airfield defenses ? I just took a spin over Sochi and nothing was attacking me.

This request was put forward but people (like yourself now) chose to disrespect the pilots flying Flankers by claiming it's all their own fault. Belittling is what causes the angst and that is what you're doing right now, maybe you should make a separate thread with your request and show us the way.

What you call belittling is actually just my pointing out the flaw in logic that this conversation is saturated with. You guys seem to know the strengths and weaknesses of the systems you employ and are employed against you yet you insist on not using those strengths and weaknesses to your advantage.

I'm imagining this is all stemming from constant head-on engagements where you're pulling the trigger and just waiting to get face****ed by a missile, which of course is not going to work in favor of the shorter range missile. Ironically, I was in-game watching Moltar's engagement that started this whole missile balance conversation in the first place and that is exactly what happened...and he lost the engagement doing exactly what he shouldn't have been doing but refuses to accept it.

Instead it seems you and others want to cater the game/mission to your deficiencies despite Red team already being capable of winning the engagement/objective (obviously...look who won).

What you call belittling is actually just my pointing out the flaw in logic that this conversation is saturated with. You guys seem to know the strengths and weaknesses of the systems you employ and are employed against you yet you insist on not using those strengths and weaknesses to your advantage.

 

I'm imagining this is all stemming from constant head-on engagements where you're pulling the trigger and just waiting to get face****ed by a missile, which of course is not going to work in favor of the shorter range missile. Ironically, I was in-game watching Moltar's engagement that started this whole missile balance conversation in the first place and that is exactly what happened...and he lost the engagement doing exactly what he shouldn't have been doing but refuses to accept it.

 

Instead it seems you and others want to cater the game/mission to your deficiencies despite Red team already being capable of winning the engagement/objective (obviously...look who won).

You're lost on the topic, red fly Mirages too, the problem is not red guys complaining they can't win, the problem is Mirage is the aircraft of choice everything else is an underdog hence a server full of Mirages. While there is no problem with this, the harmless suggestion that seems to upset you so much is to tweak the balance a bit to bring variation to the fighters in play.

But just keep ignoring the harmless request and carry on mocking players like that is the reason everyone is flying Mirages.

What you call belittling is actually just my pointing out the flaw in logic that this conversation is saturated with. You guys seem to know the strengths and weaknesses of the systems you employ and are employed against you yet you insist on not using those strengths and weaknesses to your advantage.

 

I'm imagining this is all stemming from constant head-on engagements where you're pulling the trigger and just waiting to get face****ed by a missile, which of course is not going to work in favor of the shorter range missile. Ironically, I was in-game watching Moltar's engagement that started this whole missile balance conversation in the first place and that is exactly what happened...and he lost the engagement doing exactly what he shouldn't have been doing but refuses to accept it.

 

Instead it seems you and others want to cater the game/mission to your deficiencies despite Red team already being capable of winning the engagement/objective (obviously...look who won).

Man I've lost all respect for you. Tell you what, I'll go home and get the track to show you what happened. I didnt the just fly into the missile. He dodged 3 27R at medium to close range and fired a single 530 at close range, well inside the RTR. I cranked dumped chaff and ate a missile.

Seeing an engagement in GCI or spectator is not going to give you an details and neither is seeing an engagement from the ground when it's happening thousands of feet above you.

I know I'm not the best flanker pilot, but I would bet that there are several people that would attest, even in this thread, that I know what I'm doing. I'm not one to fly head long into a missile and hope for the best. He'll check Twitch and watch my old streams. I know my way around the flanker especially in PvP.

We're are having discussion about balance and you're here being little ... In the corner because he thinks the world should work how he sees it.

EDIT: Can we just stop attacking each other? We were having a discussion about balance in BF. Yes it was heated, but we were making progress as people on both sides were contributing. Attacking each other is going to get us no where.

But just keep ignoring the harmless request and carry on mocking players like that is the reason everyone is flying Mirages.

Mocking players? You're downplaying my comments as just pointless vitriol as a petty defense because it doesn't align with your perspective. I get it. In reality, I'm after the same goal everyone else is, I'm just not being unreasonable in my expectations to achieve it.

The too-many-Mirage issue will be dealt with, I'm sure. There's a myriad of other ways to do so without changing DCS missile dynamics or giving another aircraft equipment and/or ordnance that is outside of the scope of the current rule set.

Mocking players? You're downplaying my comments as just pointless vitriol as a petty defense because it doesn't align with your perspective. I get it. In reality, I'm after the same goal everyone else is, I'm just not being unreasonable in my expectations to achieve it.

 

The too-many-Mirage issue will be dealt with, I'm sure. There's a myriad of other ways to do so without changing DCS missile dynamics or giving another aircraft equipment and/or ordnance that is outside of the scope of the current rule set.

In the same light you downplay the discussion because it doesnt suit your ideals.

No one has asked for a change in missile dynamics or rule set, general consensus is to allow the Flanker to receive datalink from EWRs like it should be getting but is currently mission blocked by settings. How is that unreasonable?

We're are having discussion about balance and you're here being little ... In the corner because he thinks the world should work how he sees it..

Yet you're the one stating ED did it all wrong and calling for changes to the mission. Seems legit.

No one has asked for a change in missile dynamics or rule set, general consensus is to allow the Flanker to receive datalink from EWRs like it should be getting but is currently mission blocked by settings. How is that unreasonable?

General consensus?! Two...three people?