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Eurpean thatre : Normandy Approrpiate Bf109?


Kev2go

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Since ED has officially announced the Fw190 A8 module, which fits in more with the Normandy map than either Bf109K4 or FW190D9 which not used or even in service at the time, are there any plans to have earlier but appropriate BF109 variation after the Fw190 A8?

 

 

BF109 G6 was already in service since 1943, and BF109 G14 wouldn't be too out of place given it was introduced into service July of 1944, after DDay landings but whislt Allies were still fighting IN france over Normandy region.

 

So any plans for any of those 2 variations?


Edited by Kev2go

 

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G6 model was planned as IA although it's been a while since last news about that. Fw190A-8 was also planned as IA IIRC, so we can only hope for the best.

 

 

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Honestly I think a non AS G-14 would be the best option. It fits for Normandy as well as any scenario after that till the end of the war. If ED sticks to what they said about making WWII maps that fit for the current plane set it would be the best option. Also it covers the low altitude 109s while the K-4, which is not significantly different to late AS models, covers the high altitude 109s.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

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Honestly I think a non AS G-14 would be the best option. It fits for Normandy as well as any scenario after that till the end of the war. If ED sticks to what they said about making WWII maps that fit for the current plane set it would be the best option. Also it covers the low altitude 109s while the K-4, which is not significantly different to late AS models, covers the high altitude 109s.

 

 

 

This is right, and if we had similar Allied aircraft (Tempest, Spitfire 14 +25lb) which also served the same period then I'd be in favour of the G14 too.

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Honestly I think a non AS G-14 would be the best option. It fits for Normandy as well as any scenario after that till the end of the war. If ED sticks to what they said about making WWII maps that fit for the current plane set it would be the best option. Also it covers the low altitude 109s while the K-4, which is not significantly different to late AS models, covers the high altitude 109s.

 

The G-14 arrived in 'July'. Assuming the best case let's say the 1st. The useful time period for the DCS Normandy map is late June- Mid July. If it can be shown that the switch to G-14 was comprehensive, i.e. that every existing G-6 airframe was withdrawn and replaced with a G-14 and that every new airframe delivered was a G-14, then you'd have a reasonable point to argue from.

 

However, I strongly suspect this was not the case.

The only information I have found has been from some ancient Il-2 boards regarding the G-14/AS:

 

WkNr 460330-460670, Erla, 50 G-14/AS, 07.44-08.44

WkNr 461100-461999, Erla, 73 G-14/AS, 08.44-09.44

WkNr 780300-780400, Mtt Regensburg, around 50 G-14/AS, 07.44

WkNr 780600-781399, Mtt Regensburg, around 432 G-14/AS, 08.44

 

This information would require corroboration, naturally.

If true, it would indicate that only 100 were produced in July alone. That's produced. They then need shipping to units (not all on the Western front, one assumes that some would have gone East and to Italy also) and for a number to be held as reserve airframes.

 

Now given that there was limited number of the -/AS powerplants perhaps we can be more generous with the numbers of straight G-14, but the truth of the allotment of these aircraft remains. You have the demand of three different fronts plus a need to hold some as reserves for replacing losses.

 

As such I would argue that the late G-6 variant is far better representative as the bulk of 109 equipped Gruppen of the Jagdwaffe in the West would have been equipped with this variant, ergo it was what you were more likely to encounter.

 

For the same reason I think the Mk.XIV Spitfire is irrelevant for the current map, and would much rather see a Typhoon than a Tempest.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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As such I would argue that the late G-6 variant is far better representative as the bulk of 109 equipped Gruppen of the Jagdwaffe in the West would have been equipped with this variant, ergo it was what you were more likely to encounter.

 

I totally agree, but a late G-6 is the same as a G-14 with the exception of how the MW-50 system is pressurised. Obviously alot of G-6s toward the end of the war (or even all 109s in general) were not always built to exact model specifications but more or less were put together out of whatever bits and pieces were on hand. Modelling every single one of these however seems a bit pointless. While the G-14 is a tad late for the very start of normandy (even though its the same as a 109 with MW-50 that flew in that period), it fits well for any later scenarios which we might get.

 

This is right, and if we had similar Allied aircraft (Tempest, Spitfire 14 +25lb) which also served the same period then I'd be in favour of the G14 too.

 

Yes that would be awesome. I guess we will have to wait and see what the Flying Legens pack brings but I think the Mustang upgrade and the P-47 in combination with what we have now + the A-8 are a good start towards a planeset for Germany/Austria 1945.

 

As others have said the A-8 was originally also only AI so maybe a late model G-6 (which is essentially a G-14) and the Tempest/Typhoon (I cant remember which was listed in the assets pack) will get the same treatment. Add the Mossie and a Me 410 and I think one could definitely make some very interesting multiplayer scenarios.

 

IIRC the Spit 14 never flew with +25 operationally. Maybe we will see one in a simulator someday, but I highly doubt the one from VEAO is ever going to happen.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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In July 44 over 700 G-14s and G-14U4s with AM motor were put into service. Around 400 G-14 ASMs went into service in August 44. Basically total 109 production capacity and lines stayed the same, just the model name changed, well and obviously the blower on the ASM type.

 

But honestly while the MG151s would be amazing these models are really simliar to the K-4s, just a bit lighter, slower and lacking in high alt. What Id like to see is a DCS F-4 or G-2, those where simply the sexiest 109s ever and then release a Spit Mk V and it would be a perfect world. The Normandy map timeframe is nonexistant anyway, at no point in time is it accurate and for the closest it gets the LW would hold not a single airport in that map.

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IRRC the ETO Mustang that ED was supposed to consider was the P-51D20 or D25. the First orders of the D20 batch were not until June 1944.

 

So given its Europe 1944-45, and we would also get a late mustang Variation ( even if its not PTO later D30 production that we currently have) , it would be more in line with the BF109 G14.

 

 

ALso to consider the P47D30 module we are getting was also too late for initial Normandy Operations.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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In July 44 over 700 G-14s and G-14U4s with AM motor were put into service. Around 400 G-14 ASMs went into service in August 44. Basically total 109 production capacity and lines stayed the same, just the model name changed, well and obviously the blower on the ASM type.

 

But honestly while the MG151s would be amazing these models are really simliar to the K-4s, just a bit lighter, slower and lacking in high alt. What Id like to see is a DCS F-4 or G-2, those where simply the sexiest 109s ever and then release a Spit Mk V and it would be a perfect world. The Normandy map timeframe is nonexistant anyway, at no point in time is it accurate and for the closest it gets the LW would hold not a single airport in that map.

+1000

 

ED give us a 109F4

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In the 24-Aug-2018 News Update (REF), the developers mentioned "new World War II era maps". I would be very keen to find out what those new maps are, before making any suggestions on which type of Bf 109 to model next.

 

Wasn't there something about "maps that fit the current plane set"?

Considering that i'd stay with version that fit into 43 - until 45.

 

Here a related Discussion about this

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=158033

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Why not a G6 with the option to change it to a G14 - I'm sure the tweaks would all be minor changes and might add value to the module - much like the clipped wing option for the Spitfire?

 

 

Assuming of course, we're getting a second 109.

 

 

It isn't surprising that everyone will want to fly the fastest bestest version of every airframe regardless of historical availability. At least this way, the mission designer will have the last say, and choice - well, is that ever a bad thing?

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It isn't surprising that everyone will want to fly the fastest bestest version of every airframe regardless of historical availability. At least this way, the mission designer will have the last say, and choice - well, is that ever a bad thing?

 

 

I Totally agree that mission makers will be the ones to make the calls, assuming they have a choice of assets to use. Once options are in place, it is no longer the developers responsiblity to achieve historical coherency.

 

 

 

I don't care if the machines we have are the "fastest" or "best".. so long as what we do have is representative of the likely matchups at a specific time.

If this means ED push back into 1943 with the german aircraft, to make them a more sensible match for the current allied ones then fine.

Conversely, if it means releasing later Allied aircraft to match the current German mid-late 1944 set then I am also fine with that.

 

 

What is frustrating is a 1943 allied set and a 1944 Axis set.

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There is no 1943 allied set... The Spit IX came into service then and flew till the end of the war. The P-51 we have is a 45 model and the Thunderbolt is a 44 model.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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The P-51 and Spitty are at manifold pressure levels consistent with those in use by the Tactical Air Forces of their respective nations at the time of the invasion Phil. Labelling them as 1943 aircraft is slightly disingenuous. The 'C' wing armament layout Spitfire was more numerous at the time span represented by the Normandy map so again...

 

These aircraft, at these same manifold pressure settings, would also have faced the later Luftwaffe types in the late autumn and winter of 1944, including during Bodenplatte. There were in reality Spitfire Mk.XIV and Tempest Mk.V units to offset some of the technological advantage, however, the bulk of 2nd TAF would still have been Mk.IXs (with a greater emphasis on the 'E' wing armament) still at +18lb, and the 9th Air Force P-51 squadrons (all 6 of them) would have been running still at 61"HG.

 

The issue has, and continues to be the initial choice of map, and the lack of Luftwaffe types to represent the typical variants seen over it. This is at least being partially redressed with the announcement of the Fw 190A-8.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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Sure, let's have an even more chronologically incoherent plane-set just so you get your pet ride... :huh:

the f version contrary to the k4 was actually in service in normandy. and as i think even u personally pointed out in another thread that the current normandy map isnt historical accurate for a specific time frame it has its place on dcs imo....besides...limiting this map to only a few months period in time is a huge mistake imo....as we all know this area saw action a couple of years during the most part of the war.

also....one more reason to create an earlier version is the similarity between the k4 and late g models...an f version i would buy instantly....a g14 i dont know imo...its to similar for my taste to warrant a purchase...

 

 

last but not least, as dcs started with a very late planeset, it would make sense to travel back in time and produce earlier variants imo


Edited by birdstrike
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the f version contrary to the k4 was actually in service in normandy.

 

But it isn't representative of the most likely to encounter variant. Surely when presented with such a diversity of types and sub-types on both sides and with limited resources to produce you choose that which represents the most common on the basis that model is the most likely variant to be encountered.

 

and as i think even u personally pointed out in another thread that the current normandy map isnt historical accurate for a specific time frame it has its place on dcs imo....

 

I have many detail issues with the Normandy map in it's current state but I was not the one who defined the era(s) that represents; that came from others.

 

Whatever errors it exhibits, however, we know from the developers that it is supposed to represent Normandy in near immediate post invasion period. That of itself defines a plane-set, and ergo makes above a defining factor.

 

besides...limiting this map to only a few months period in time is a huge mistake imo....as we all know this area saw action a couple of years during the most part of the war.

 

I don't disagree with the principal, ideally the temporary airfields should be able to be added/removed based on date/user desire would have made this map a much more flexible entity for prototypical operations across a wide range .

 

However, we have no idea of the technological limitations of the map making software; it may be (and it appears, is) impossible to add or remove airfields at will. In which case do you demand another version of Normandy? Are you gonna pay for that or demand it for free?

 

also....one more reason to create an earlier version is the similarity between the k4 and late g models...an f version i would buy instantly....a g14 i dont know imo...its to similar for my taste to warrant a purchase...

 

Maybe on your planet. For the rest of us it's a completely different aircraft with different performance, being heavier & draggier than the K-4. For all the reasons outlined above a G-6 or -14 is a better representation of a typical 109 on the Western Front at the time defined by the developers.

 

last but not least, as dcs started with a very late planeset, it would make sense to travel back in time and produce earlier variants imo

 

What relevance is this to the conversation? Why not go further? Let's have an Emil! or better yet, why not a Fokker Dr.1! May I remind you what the title of the thread is?

 

Isn't the aim here to try and end up with a cohesive, cogent and convincing environment and theatre to best simulate to the most realistic manner currently limited by our technologies

a selected period of the WW2 air war?

 

Or is it simply a mish mash of chronologically inconsistent pet-projects in one of the most aerodynamically sophisticated simulators?


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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However, we have no idea of the technological limitations of the map making software; it may be (and it appears, is) impossible to add or remove airfields at will.

 

FYI: The Boffins at Storm of War are looking at something in this particular area... :)

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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FYI: The Boffins at Storm of War are looking at something in this particular area... :)

 

If you guys could... really... that would make me like Normandy again! You guys can do it! All the best of luck! :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

The comparable performance of the G-14 stays the same for all current planes, it will outurn and be slower than a Mustang and Dora, it will be outturned but faster than a Spit. What do we gain? Well, nothing really.

 

Lets face it, noone who owns the K-4 would buy a G-14 for another 50$, its too similiar and a waste of model. Many Allied only jocks dont even own axis planes at all. So, whos the audience here?

The only late G model that makes sense to me is a G-10 as addon to the K-4. Same engine, same everything, just slower and lighter. Remove a few 3 model parts, throw in MG151 code, remove a few kilos in the code, done!

 

I am not even sure the A-8 will sell well, there is no real reason to choose it over the Dora except for nicer looks and supposed accuracy for the inaccurate Normandy map. I own the Dora and I dont think I will invest in such a similiar plane.The same argument as I made for the G-14 performance can be made for the A-8, but at least it has a different engine and is sexier.

 

Id much rather have them set up a mid war timeline over Normandy, get rid of the stupid ALGs and add a few airports in Britain and up to Calais. If it could be community modable this map would go crazy! For the late war uberplane stuff a Bodenplatte type map or german soil map would be much more fitting. Although the Luftwaffe was basically done at that point in time anyway.


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

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If it could be community modable this map would go crazy! For the late war uberplane stuff a Bodenplatte type map or german soil map would be much more fitting. Although the Luftwaffe was basically done at that point in time anyway.

 

The community require the SDK to make maps and Mods and yet, that only applicable to 3rd parties.

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