Guess what! Easy AAR!

No, that this manual you idiot, that other manual of course.

Maybe the F-14 manual sucks? I don’t know... haven’t got that one yet.

While you’ve all been writing text walls I finished the F-18 manual :book:

Time to practice AAR. I’ll let you know when I got it. The basket is a @#$&! :pilotfly:

Who would've known that so many would feel threatened by an option of easier refueling for those who need/want it...

... and if you're not threatened by it, why oppose it so strongly?

Who would've known that so many would feel threatened by an option of easier refueling for those who need/want it...

 

 

 

 

 

... and if you're not threatened by it, why oppose it so strongly?

Keyboard warrior syndrome man.

Who would've known that so many would feel threatened by an option of easier refueling for those who need/want it...

 

 

 

 

 

... and if you're not threatened by it, why oppose it so strongly?

Like vertigo, if you dont read, you wont know. Short answer,

You dont need a cheat for fuel because its there already (unlimited fuel)

The maps are too small to make it be required (so no one is missing out on anything)

It might take important development resources away from critical needed fixes

Nothing else except the ridiculous counter arguments is in play.

Like vertigo, if you dont read, you wont know. Short answer,

Oh, I've read the entire thread and there are valid and stupid arguments on both sides.

The thing is, even the only valid (IMHO) argument against Easy AAR can be countered.

Here's the list of arguments I've seen so far (as I understand them). Please feel free to correct me if I missed one.

1. DCS is a sim not a game.

That one is easy to counter because it's actually both. And we already have lots of other options to make it easier for those who want it (like rudder assists for WW2 planes)

2. Just use Unlimited Fuel.

This one is also easy to counter as UF negates fuel management entirely while Easy AAR would not.

3. "Git gud!"

This one is just plain stupid.

4. There's no need for AAR/ the maps are too small.

While mostly this is true, there are many examples of missions that could include AAR (a fully loaded Harrier taking off from Tarawa is a very easy one).

5. Developing Easy AAR would take resources from other, more important tasks.

They are probably already working on it, for their MAC, so it's just a matter of adding it to DCS once it's ready.

6. Changes like may be a sign of turning DCS into more arcade game.

While I understand the fear it's not grounded in reality. There are absolutely no indications of DCS becoming more arcade, in fact it's quite the opposite.

I dont see why easy AAR should not be an option, as already stated there are other helper options to increase the play ability of this sim-game. If the option allowed a player to refuel if you get within a certain distance of a tanker (500m??) then choose how much fuel you want in a single hit. Other people who want to can go for the full hookup and have the fun doing so can still do this and are rewarded with the full visuals etc of connecting.

Just a word for anyone struggling to AAR, I have struggled for a very long time, mostly trying f18. I reduced my pitch and roll curves on my Thrustmaster warthog from 15 to 10.... suddenly it was much easier and now I can do it. Managed 7000lbs in one go... Most guides talk about increasing curves, but I have found the opposite. No extensions. I worked out the tiny throttle changes ages ago, I just couldn't stop those PIOs.

Perhaps already mentioned in one of the 31! pages, but probably the biggest "helper" in doing aerial refueling, is Virtual Reality.

For all of you who didn't make the plunge yet, most of the basic military flight procedures such as landing, AAR, formation flying are much MUCH more easy in VR. If your budget allows it (bear in mind, you can save on that $$$ 32" 4K screen), it's a total game, or should I say "sim":P changer

Before I used VR, I never really bothered to try AAR, as I also found it really difficult and unsatisfying. Now, with VR, it's like driving your car... Due to the perfect depth and speed perception, flying in formation becomes second nature

Here is what Im hearing: its your fault for using built-in tutorials and not reading "the" manual. No, that this manual you idiot, that other manual of course. And dont actually read the manual, are you daft? watch the youtube vids hidden at the end of the manual. And not those other youtube vids by XYZ, only these youtube vids by ABC, how else will you learn how to test the fire extinguisher lights before trying out your new toy. And ok, that rather vital information is not in any manual, that stuff OF COURSE can be found by reading every line in the key binding menu. Just read it and ignore the 99% stuff you dont understand, you will find the 1% thing you didnt know you where looking for or existed. And if you cant find it there either, its on wikipedia! And if you cant find it on wikipedia, ask in the forums. Where no doubt, someone will kindly tell you to RTFM.

 

How could we possibly make this any easier? I have no idea.

You know what... OK. There are too many manuals, some are hidden so you cannot find them. There's too many videos, especially the hidden ones you get at the end of the hidden manuals. You are right, you simply dont need to know 99% of the stuff anyway, but the improtant 1% is clearly buried somewhere you cannot find it, the back of a book, links to a secret manual, that leads to a hidden private Youtube video. It's also deliberate. Also you are right about being told to read the manual, whilst on the forums, for items that haven't existed in wikipedia. Thats true. It is also true it's a conspiracy to prevent people becoming proficient with the simulator. I'm sorry you had to discover this way. We are sad lonely virtual walter Mittys who are underconfident, cannot socialise with the real world and deserate to hang onto the only secrets available. Must guard those secrets!! I've also been sent here to delay and confuse you with stories about manuals, because our master is buying time for the next great push of confusion.

Or...

You just have to read a lot for flight sims because they are a bit complex.

AAR in fact is not tat hard to do, it takes practice and that's it. Really don't need any help in there, I did it with basic stick (cheapest Thrustmaster) and no Track IR so it is doable, it was hard tho really need precision, now I have HOTAS and Track IR and tbh I don't know if it is easier cause of that or cause of practice.

And simulator is a video game in its core, but it simulates real life. So if we want those help mechanics we will eventually create a game not a simulator.

So, I've been away for a bit and I see this thread has grown to over 30 pages with exactly nothing having changed one bit in the process. Splendid.

I'd like to, once again, point out what confused me about the request on page 5 or so and still does. Perhaps somebody can sort of let me know at which point I'm being totally wrong here.

Everyone who says this was an essential thing to have in DCS is actually part of two groups:

a) «I can't or don't want to invest the time in practicing this in a simulator.» Pretty straightforward. Frankly, I can get it this far.

b) «When I fly in DCS I prefer super-endurance mission in which I loiter in target areas for an hour.» This is the bit where you all lose me. I figure this is what people do, because it's frankly the only way you need to in-flight refuel in most planes.

It just seems odd that so many people seem to be in both of these groups, because I'd assume anyone tight on free time would or should prefer missions that are a bit leaner cut to the interesting bits.

The only other thing that I've read here is:

«I'm in a squadron and they always do in-flight refuelling.»

Frankly, this doesn't require a technical solution. You realise you are not in an actual fighter squadron there, don't you? It's the same as an old-timey gaming clan, just with fancier titles. Perhaps a good solution to this would be to gut up to the clan honcho (or whatever they might call themselves) and tell them: 'Look, I can't do in-flight refuelling. Could we do missions without that once in a while?' Chances are they'll gladly work something out. Do shorter missions. Have you join the formation an hour late on the run to target.

If it's a great big deal to them because it says so in their ancient traditions that Steve wrote last month... perhaps it's time to just find other friends to fly with, because that squadron is quite actively excluding you anyway.

At the end of the day, I don't care too much. Make it a game-mode option and be done. It just feels a bit confusing, is all.

I don't know how the refuelling stuff is coded in DCS but, I imagine, the "connected" state is probably triggered by a combination of parameters (relative speed, relative distance, orientation etc.) about the probe and the basket.

Then MAYBE somebody could (easily?) make a mod (so, not an official DCS modification) where the "ranges" of these parameters can be changed, in such a way, for instance, that you'd just need to touch the basket or to be at a certain distance from it to start taking up fuel. And you could make the parameters more and more stringent as you get better and better at formation flying.

And with such a "mod" you might also cheat with the refuel flow rate so that you can be done in, say, a few seconds (or even instantly) instead of a minute or two.

The advantage is that you'd slowly learn how to "do it right".

That wouldn't be visually perfect (you'd be refuelling with your probe one meter or so from the basket) but (if my first sentence is correct) it might not require a lot of work.

That wouldn't be visually perfect (you'd be refuelling with your probe one meter or so from the basket) but (if my first sentence is correct) it might not require a lot of work.

In that case imagine that a basket is 1 meter forward ;P wouldn't change a thing in AAR, people would still have trouble.

as far as I understand, the main problem they have is formation flying. They cant keep the plane steady, or steady enough, some don't even do the coms right so you cant connect to the basket or boom anyway.

Gregkar on the first page said he can't stay connected, so he is obviously having problems with formation flying. I don't stay connected full time either, sometimes I do it without disconnecting sometimes it takes me 5 tries, all depends on my focus that day, am I tired etc...

If we are gonna have that AAR helper mode, make it a game mode only option.

Well, I think it might work for all those who cannot do formation flying (and I can't say that I can myselft), but who nevertheless can keep the plane reasonably stable for a few seconds. Especially combined with 'instant refuel'.

Anyway, it's up to those who want easyAAR to decide if that would work for them.

And if it could be done as an ovgme mod you don't even need to bother about game mode.

Oh, I've read the entire thread and there are valid and stupid arguments on both sides.

 

 

The thing is, even the only valid (IMHO) argument against Easy AAR can be countered.

 

 

Here's the list of arguments I've seen so far (as I understand them). Please feel free to correct me if I missed one.

 

1. DCS is a sim not a game.

 

That one is easy to counter because it's actually both. And we already have lots of other options to make it easier for those who want it (like rudder assists for WW2 planes)

 

 

2. Just use Unlimited Fuel.

This one is also easy to counter as UF negates fuel management entirely while Easy AAR would not.

 

 

 

3. "Git gud!"

This one is just plain stupid.

 

 

 

4. There's no need for AAR/ the maps are too small.

While mostly this is true, there are many examples of missions that could include AAR (a fully loaded Harrier taking off from Tarawa is a very easy one).

 

 

5. Developing Easy AAR would take resources from other, more important tasks.

 

They are probably already working on it, for their MAC, so it's just a matter of adding it to DCS once it's ready.

 

 

6. Changes like may be a sign of turning DCS into more arcade game.

While I understand the fear it's not grounded in reality. There are absolutely no indications of DCS becoming more arcade, in fact it's quite the opposite.

You missed the absolutely obvious imo. Why does a normal flying skill need a cheat difficulty feature added? Genuine practice on a common required flying skill, is normal, that's why so many people are doing laps of the boat right now, to improve their case1. It's no different to "landing", "taking off", "flying formation". It's superfluous. Not needed.

The often posited counter is, "Why not?" The counter-counter is, "Where does it stop, you cannot have all the things, you have to choose".

I could also ask for autotrim for my P-51, Landing rollout assistance on my Spitfire, automatic temperature control for cowl, oil and carb flaps on the P-47. It never crossed my mind to request a cheat feature as it would irrevocably damage the point of the game/sim.

Your arguments and counters in turn

1. I didn't read that one, I don't agree with it as a reason, but I'll be damned if you could call AAR a game, I find it is very tedious. Why are people even asking for this!? :( I have thousands of hours over 12 years in this product and at no stage did I think, "You know what I need in my life... I need more AAR, it's holding me back in life."

2. If anyone actually did any proper fuel planning, they would realise there is very little use for AAR outside of empty fuel launches and CAP stations. The list of people doing these tedious activities is mutually exclusive of the list of people that cannot spend enough time to practice AAR.

People taking up empty fuel instead of weapons, that is funny, see it all the time on BlueFlag. Yeah, fuel tanks dont exist, pylons are for weapons apparently. At least for those people who have 30 mins max to spend.

Who are these people doing laps for 3-4 hours on a CAP station at best endurance in these forums? Own up, we need to identify you so you can go on a list at Interpol. Show me a flight plan, now, from someone that cannot AAR, with a refuelling plan on a DCS map. They don't exist. Fairies. Either that or there are groups of people flying sorties in DCS with p1ss bags. Come on!

3. Is entirely infered by people feeling threatened. It's not said or even implied, it's mistaken for advice on 'keeping practicing'. If you want to quote individuals saying that, fine, I do not agree with the tone or people saying it. But when someone says "practice is the answer", this is not the same as 'git gud' whatever that really means. Everyone who does AAR had to practice. Some more than others. Some have controllers that arent great. I was one of those. I do not believe it is unfair to say keep trying, rather than institute a crutch. Maybe I was bullied into 'no stabilizers on my bike', and I'm a terribly damaged individual with scars on their knees. Or maybe scars on the knees shows you tried. If something is worth doing, it's worth spending all the time it needs. Earn some scars. Don't damage the feeling of success by widening the goal posts. The victory would be hollow. But it is really a hollow victory, you dont need to AAR and can get by without it.

I've also got news for you folks that cannot yet AAR that you will NOT like to hear. You get rusty if you dont practice!

4. See point 2. It is still not required. Show me a fuel plan from a person here that cannot AAR and says they need an automation, for a mission. I want to see these folks being airborne for more than 90 minutes at a time to believe they exist. Otherwise tell me fairies exist.

5. You just made that up on the spot. There is no public evidence to suggest "Easy AAR" is WIP. If we are going to make things up, let's imagine a world full of peace and beauty where people could AAR all day long because they had a VKB+extension, motor-neurone diseases didnt exist, everyone had VR and so on. Inventing stories is not part of reasoned debate and you made me use sarcasm to reinforce that, which is sad :(

6. Agree. There is no connection. DCS has long wanted to capture a broader audience. They've made mild strides with documentation, accessibility, localisation, easy modes, videos, but as soon as it gets to a feature where it automates part of the flying, they are stuck because the purpose of a simulator is to fly it, and quite frankly it's hard to design an auto AAR system that doesn't entirely trash the concept. Proximity fuelling? Flying over a base? No what was asked for was some sort of driving assistance and you cannot force the driving of a plane any other way than clientside when in multiplayer, there are big SP-MP differences in what you can do due to security.

AAR cheat is not a "FREE" option. People need to get that out of their heads. It's free to wish for, its not free to deliver. A common counter argument is about people having choices, which in principal is correct, in a world where literally everything is free with no consequences. People are not understanding the extents of this, that development time is finite. It is an option that requires developed, it will take time, man hours. It is also not as simple to develop as you can imagine it. There is a finite list of things that can be achieved. And I'd rather something else, which is why said as much, not because I have some weird agenda or feel special, this thread never occurred to me before it existed.

Some day, when the 3000 bugs are closed, the planned features created, the infinite number of wish list items can be tackled. Until then, cool, it's a wish list item we can disagree on.

You missed the absolutely obvious imo. Why does a normal flying skill need a cheat difficulty feature added?

I wouldn't call one of the most difficult thing to do in a sim a "normal flying skill".

As to answering this question as well as "Where does it stop?":

because some people are asking for it and others think it's a good idea. Also because we're asking for something optional.

If you don't want to use Easy AAR it would not change your experience at all. That's what baffles me the most. Why would you fight so much against something that doesn't affect you?

As for your other answers...

1. Actually, I agree with you here and to be honest this topic turned into "a big fight over 5 cents". So yes, I don't thing Easy AAR is some "super important feature that must be included or the sim won't be complete". For me it's more of a nice thing to have for those who want it.

I guess I dragged myself into this discussion because of how strongly some people are opposed to such a small feature request. It's like they felt threatened or something.

2/4. That still doesn't change the fact that with UF you can just start with 1% fuel, load up with weapons and use full afterburner during the whole flight. Again, I'm not saying AAR is super important, just that Unlimited Fuel is not a good substitute for it.

3. All valid arguments if you want to use DCS that way. I actually did just that, I've spent hours practicing AAR, carrier recoveries, or even simple traffic patterns until I got it. But who am I to force others to play the same way I do? After all, one of the great things about DCS is its versatility, also in allowing you to decide just how much realism you want. Easy AAR just expands that versatility.

5. Yeah, I did make that up and it is possible that they're not working on it. In that case it really would take resources from other projects. On the other hand as some here pointed out, LOMAC did have Easy AAR option and since MAC is something of a successor to LOMAC and it's on the same engine as DCS I wouldn't call my guess too far fetched.

"AAR cheat is not a "FREE" option."

In the end I understand your point. And I agree that there are more important things to do. A lot, actually.

For me, Easy AAR would just be a nice thing to have, if possible.

So both sides expressed their opinions on the wish but some feel the need to defend their point like it would change something writing whole articles as posts. But I don't see anyone convincing others or turning sides. Instead I turned out to be children and disabled people slayer just for standing by my statements on the hardcore side. Funny thing, The Internets ;)

2. Just use Unlimited Fuel.

This one is also easy to counter as UF negates fuel management entirely while Easy AAR would not.

People can experience fuel management on any normal mission. AAR isn’t needed for most all normal missions.

I wouldn't call one of the most difficult thing to do in a sim a "normal flying skill".

It’s a difficult task to be sure but it’s one that is built upon basic flying skills. Like landing on a carrier compared to normal landings.

opposed to such a small feature request.

I don't think this is a small request at all. It's going to need to be built from scratch, or else the user will have to completely relinquish control momentarily to the A.I. Flight Model.

Any "assistance" will need to be completely coded from nothing, there's nothing like it currently in the sim. It's not an aircraft Flight Control / FCS/ FLCS or Autopilot mode. It's not turbulence (which was coded from scratch as well). It's something completely different and fictitious that would need to be made.

We can't even agree on how it could work. Will there be any HUD/UI elements for it?

Will this have to be individually tailored for every module?

There's no way I can see this being an "easy thing to add." Sure it could be nice to have (I just spent 45 minutes refreshing how to AAR in the A-10 again.)

About the only way I can see this reasonably being implemented is if the user looses all aircraft control during the refuel process.

I personally think that learning AAR is part of the point of, you know, a simulator. I will also say that part of the problem is that you see the "bang-bang" part as the the fun part and the AAR as the dull part, so are willing to put in time the former but not the latter. But I will tell you this --- put in the time to learn AAR and it will be the most fulfilling thing you will ever accomplish outside of real life. I mean it. I walked around with an (internal) smile for weeks the first time I plugged and tanked straight with no mishaps. It took about 3-4 weeks. Still count this as one of the "visceral/mind-body-connection" skills I am most proud of.

And here's the thing.

You can do it.

I have a full-time job, a second job, and kids. So my DCS time is very limited. Just an hour or so, a few nights in the week, after the kids go to sleep. On nights where I am not wiped out and where I don't have to get up early the next morning.

Still I forced myself to try tanking for at least 10 minutes every night before doing anything else in DCS. Even if I got nowhere. It was just a little bit of investment --- "penance", if you like --- that I had to do before I got to the other stuff. 10 minutes of doing a wildcat-on-catnip-and-caffeine dancing zipping left/right/up/down all over the tanker. Now and then I might hit the basket, but I could not stay connected. But no matter. It was the just something I had to do, like or not, before getting to the rest of DCS. The "penance" attitude help me feel that I was not wasting me time, which helped reduce frustration. Still got to "enjoy" DCS the rest of the session, but just sacrificed 10 minutes to this.

After a few sessions, I upped the game to try plugging in at least 6 to 10 times (even I could never stay plugged in for more than a few seconds) before doing anything else in DCS. Again, as a sort of "price" to pay before actually playing the rest of DCS, which helped me feel like I was not wasting time. Again, limited in time, so that I could still enjoy other parts of DCS in the little time I had.

And then, the bar became: stay connected for as long as you can. Same deal --- just need to do it before moving to other parts of DCS.

And you know what, it clicked. It is admittedly, the most challenging outmaneuver in DCS. I would argue that it is more difficult than Case I. But it is also my proudest accomplishment. I actually now look forward to tanking before the action. It's a zen thing. It prepares me and warms me up. Seals the player/pilot/vehicle flow.

Whether I (or anyone else supports it or not), is all moot and almost certainly will have little no effect on developer decisions. Incidentally, for all those saying that there is no cost to this and so people who don't like it should just butt out --- you and I know that's simply not true. Developer resources invested in this means developer resources taken away from other things, like finishing modules and fixing bugs.

But, as I said, it's up to ED.

Does anybody know whether there's a lua or config file or something with settings or variables relating to AAR like refuel rate?

Not that I care about easy AAR. Just curious.

I think if you mess with the refuel rate, making it too fast, you’re going to throw your trim in the plane off. The rate isn’t a big deal, once you learn to stay connected it doesn’t matter how long you need to be there.

Incidentally, for all those saying that there is no cost to this and so people who don't like it should just butt out --- you and I know that's simply not true. Developer resources invested in this means developer resources taken away from other things, like finishing modules and fixing bugs.

This. And the fact that “Easy AAR” is just not a necessary feature.

I think if you mess with the refuel rate, making it too fast, you’re going to throw your trim in the plane off. The rate isn’t a big deal, once you learn to stay connected it doesn’t matter how long you need to be there.

 

This. And the fact that “Easy AAR” is just not a necessary feature.

Despite your myopia, several people in this thread expressed their needs and wishes for such a feature.

Why does a normal flying skill need a cheat difficulty feature added?

Simple: because it makes learning easier.

It's a ridiculously common and standard way of doing things: you break down the problem in smaller chunks. You increase the difficulty in each chunk step by step. You move from demonstration to interaction to autonomous doing in stages.

All other parts of “normal flying” in DCS has all kinds of variable difficulty options available to them that lets a player go through that process. it has a whole category of triggers and in-cockpit helper functions there solely for the purpose of making the player learn how to fly the aircraft and use its various systems. There's no reason why AAR shouldn't as well. Options are never a bad thing. Options that enhance learning even less so.

No amount of options will make the game part of this game any less of a game; no amount of options will make the sim part of this sim any less of a sim. It will only ever make the transition easier. That can only ever be a good thing.

About the only way I can see this reasonably being implemented is if the user looses all aircraft control during the refuel process.

Nah. There are a near-infinite amounts of ways it can be implemented.

Just break down the different parts of the process and think various ways in which it could be given some kind of fight aid.

Problem 1: finding the right speed, altitude, and position — Possible solutions: fix AA TACAN bugs; give refuel AI more communication options.

Problem 2: getting in position — Possible solutions: various degrees of flight aid, from “nudging” or “magnetising” (i.e. the game recognises you're close enough so small inaccuracies in flight path or input are ignored) the aircraft to the correct line to being able to project gates relative to the tanker (or indeed a carrier) like you already can relative to, say, a runway; fix turbulence bugs; add proper slip-streaming; make the tanker live in the same kind of physical environment as the player aircraft (i.e. they're on-rails, the player is not and is bounced around by forces that don't exist for the tanker).

Problem 3: getting the position right — Possible solution: again, a more communicative tanker; magnetised throttle on top of flight path; better director lights (cf. the IFLOS popup on the Supercarrier); or — just for this, and just once — complete loss of control to show the player the correct geometry they should be seeing.

Problem 4: connecting — Possible solutions: better basket physics; an even more magnetised basket and boom; a boom operator less interested in braining the pilot; at an extreme, triggers to allow fuel manipulation directly (i.e. if the player is close enough, trigger a top-up — skip the whole connection bit for later in the learning process).

Problem 4: staying connected — Possible solutions: drastically increased fuel flows/reduced time connected; aforementioned changes to the tanker flight dynamics; arguably, this, too, could be solved by complete loss of control but that would just be a waste of everyone's time at that point, otherwise just magnetised controls; once again, a more communicative tanker.

etc. etc. etc.

And that's just thinking them up as I type — actually sitting down and figuring out solutions properly would come up with tons more. Only for one of them would a complete loss of control be needed, and even in that case, it would probably be the worst solution to the specific problem.

Notice how a lot of this is stuff that is already in the game for other scenarios and how many of them directly correspond to things that were introduced with the Supercarrier modules. I can only assume from how people fret about options that they think the Supercarrier was the most ruinous and gameifying module to ever be released for DCS…

Simple: because it makes learning easier.

 

It's a ridiculously common and standard way of doing things: you break down the problem in smaller chunks.

Well, to me it seems like most people don't want to invest the time necessary to learn it because it isn't a "flashy" skill. Those guys will put in the time to learn how to use every weapon, but when it comes to anything else - nope.

You can break it down to smaller chunks without forcing the devs to create a new system from scratch. AAR is formation flying - if you can't maintain your position you will never be able to take fuel. Learn that first.

Then learn to take just 1000lbs with no turbulence and when the tanker isn't turning. Then up the difficulty with different load-outs, weather, tanker flying patterns, etc. It's all there in the sim.