DefaultFace Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 IIRC he switches to 2 hands at some point. But don't know if its still this way. 9./JG27 "If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS "In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 IIRC he switches to 2 hands at some point. But don't know if its still this way. If you'd ask me it should be: first with two hands, because of the high speed hence the forces, then with one hand as the speed and forces are getting lower or it could continue with two hands but faster with pulling. Anyways, these high stick forces should occur after 700km/h not as low as 300km/h. Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahdoh Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultFace Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use. Was suggested at some point yes. As usual the discussions here are cyclic and if you hang around long enough people seem to have the same ones over and over :D 9./JG27 "If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS "In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use. Sure.. that could be a workaround. Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golani79 Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 Was suggested at some point yes. As usual the discussions here are cyclic and if you hang around long enough people seem to have the same ones over and over :D I wonder why :D >> DCS liveries by golani79 << Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogonaut Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 I wonder why :D me too :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greco.bernardi Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 me too :D Now its the awfull plane that i ever fly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) Now its the awfull plane that i ever fly! I don't understand this stubbornness with the stick forces.. on ED's side. Edited October 8, 2020 by amazingme Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 If you'd ask me it should be: first with two hands, because of the high speed hence the forces, then with one hand as the speed and forces are getting lower or it could continue with two hands but faster with pulling. Anyways, these high stick forces should occur after 700km/h not as low as 300km/h. Based on my experience with un-assisted gliders, if you're just controlling via pulleys and such (as was the case with most/all these older planes) I can see needing both hands for 300kmh. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Based on my experience with un-assisted gliders, if you're just controlling via pulleys and such (as was the case with most/all these older planes) I can see needing both hands for 300kmh.So it should happen to ALL planes, not only the 109.. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 9, 2020 ED Team Share Posted October 9, 2020 So it should happen to ALL planes, not only the 109.. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk No, it should not. Different planes have different stick force gradients at high Mach numbers. Some times ago I wrote a detailed post about Bf-109 controllability, where was shown that at low and moderate Mach numbers Bf-109 had the same optimal force per 1 g (3-4 kg recommended) and only at high Mach numbers this gradient became significantly higher. I know at least two cases (one of them with Erich Brunotte) when the plane diving from the altitude seemed to be out of control and unrecoverable, but at lower it was possible to pull it from dive. Other planes (Fw-190, P-51 and Spitfire) were not so tough in high Mach diving, and, for example, P-51 with CoG aft was known as having dangerously light forces at the stick with reverse force gradient (the stick force became lower or even negative as the stick is pulled increasing load factor ). Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 No, it should not. Different planes have different stick force gradients at high Mach numbers. Some times ago I wrote a detailed post about Bf-109 controllability, where was shown that at low and moderate Mach numbers Bf-109 had the same optimal force per 1 g (3-4 kg recommended) and only at high Mach numbers this gradient became significantly higher. I know at least two cases (one of them with Erich Brunotte) when the plane diving from the altitude seemed to be out of control and unrecoverable, but at lower it was possible to pull it from dive. Other planes (Fw-190, P-51 and Spitfire) were not so tough in high Mach diving, and, for example, P-51 with CoG aft was known as having dangerously light forces at the stick with reverse force gradient (the stick force became lower or even negative as the stick is pulled increasing load factor ). Sure.. but 300km/h IAS is not THAT high of a Mach number. And the pilots are testifying that only after 700km IAS they need to pull with both hands out of a dive. We find the actual implementation of stick forces a bit exaggerated though.. Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 9, 2020 ED Team Share Posted October 9, 2020 Sure.. but 300km/h IAS is not THAT high of a Mach number. And the pilots are testifying that only after 700km IAS they need to pull with both hands out of a dive. We find the actual implementation of stick forces a bit exaggerated though.. I am afraid you are wrong about 300 kph - you can put the plane to stall at this speed. At higher speed you just can pull up to its service limit 8 g at low altitude, so, actually, there is no "force limits" at low Mach numbers. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iFoxRomeo Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Yo-Yo, would a double arm simulation be possible? Player presses a button, then the stick gets after 1 second roughly double arm strengh applied on roll and pitch axis as long as this button is pressed. But as both hands are now on the stick, no other command, except those on the stick(weapons, bomb release), are possible. When the button is released, back to single arm stick force and after 1 second other commands are again possible. So as long as this double arm is "on" you can't change throttle, trim, flaps, etc. because you have no virtual hand to manipulate that stuff. This would prevent a permanent "on" switch. And it would also increase the possibility of easily overstressing the airframe, as is was possible when the K4 was released. Fox Spoiler PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 9, 2020 ED Team Share Posted October 9, 2020 Yo-Yo, would a double arm simulation be possible? Player presses a button, then the stick gets after 1 second roughly double arm strengh applied on roll and pitch axis as long as this button is pressed. But as both hands are now on the stick, no other command, except those on the stick(weapons, bomb release), are possible. When the button is released, back to single arm stick force and after 1 second other commands are again possible. So as long as this double arm is "on" you can't change throttle, trim, flaps, etc. because you have no virtual hand to manipulate that stuff. This would prevent a permanent "on" switch. And it would also increase the possibility of easily overstressing the airframe, as is was possible when the K4 was released. Fox What benefit would it give? The possibility to rip off the wings? :) And, by the way, the force limit now is closer to double arm force. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 What benefit would it give? The possibility to rip off the wings? :) And, by the way, the force limit now is closer to double arm force.It would bring many benefits, such as pulling Gs faster, without the need to trim it. The trim itself is at a slow pace anyway. Please consider this. Thanks! Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iFoxRomeo Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 What benefit would it give? The possibility to rip off the wings? :) And, by the way, the force limit now is closer to double arm force. Please approach this from a player's perspective. I'm for full realism. And if I was sitting in this aircraft in reality and would notice that the controls get so stiff that I can't handle it with one arm, I would intuitively use my other arm to compensate this, but that would come with a drawback in other areas. Well, the wing rip off would happen if you yank the stick around, but if you're carefull you can ride at the edge, like you can do it with the Spitfire. I'm not asking to bend realism, but to add real possibilities. Fox Spoiler PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 10, 2020 ED Team Share Posted October 10, 2020 Please approach this from a player's perspective. I'm for full realism. And if I was sitting in this aircraft in reality and would notice that the controls get so stiff that I can't handle it with one arm, I would intuitively use my other arm to compensate this, but that would come with a drawback in other areas. Well, the wing rip off would happen if you yank the stick around, but if you're carefull you can ride at the edge, like you can do it with the Spitfire. I'm not asking to bend realism, but to add real possibilities. Fox You already have this opportunity. Two-hands mode is engaged if you overcome one-hand limit. The control became more sluggish. You still have the opportunity to recover, but pilots of the planes that have less stiff controls will have advantage. Like in RL. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 You already have this opportunity. Two-hands mode is engaged if you overcome one-hand limit. The control became more sluggish. You still have the opportunity to recover, but pilots of the planes that have less stiff controls will have advantage. Like in RL.But the handicap of 109 pilot is too much in DCS. He looks like a 5 year old who struggles with the controls @ 300km/h.. no offense.. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Unfortunately i have to agree the criticism here. Had very long pause of playing this sim, decided to give it a go to see how it feels now. For 109, stick forces at slow speeds seems to be exaggerated compared to all books i've read about it. Currently even as slow as 350km/h elevator control feels rubberish and it takes too long (from virtual pilot) to push or pull the stick full to front for example. I don't use any curves and i have "full lenght" joystick. I have no problem with forces at higher speeds as 109 is well known for this behaviour but i really hope some re-check for forces at lower speed would be done. Until then it just feels weird and doesen't compare very well for real life accounts. Wich is sad especially because otherwise DCS 109 feels the most complete/accurate Messer in any sim so far in my opinion. Edited October 10, 2020 by DB 605 CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Unfortunately i have to agree the criticism here. Had very long pause of playing this sim, decided to give it a go to see how it feels now. For 109, stick forces at slow speeds seems to be exaggerated compared to all books i've read about it. Currently even as slow as 350km/h elevator control feels rubberish and it takes too long (from virtual pilot) to push or pull the stick full to front for example. I don't use any curves and i have "full lenght" joystick. I have no problem with forces at higher speeds as 109 is well known for this behaviour but i really hope some re-check for forces at lower speed would be done. Until then it just feels weird and doesen't compare very well for real life accounts. Wich is sad especially because otherwise DCS 109 feels the most complete/accurate Messer in any sim so far in my opinion.Completely agree. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golani79 Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Completely agree. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk+1 Gesendet von meinem ONEPLUS A6013 mit Tapatalk >> DCS liveries by golani79 << Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD_Fenrir Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Less feels, more data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingme Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Less feels, more data.I don't know what data Yo-Yo used to make the Bf controls act like that.. maybe you can show us.. Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk Specs: Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080 Settings:2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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