An option for a new cockpit and a new canopy glass?

I thought that Heatblur is going to have varied textures for weathering that will be applied dynamically each time you hope in. So the cockpit would look different for every flight. That being said, I also think I read that feature has not been implemented yet. Hopefully when it is released it will make it a bit easier to read labels than it is currently.There are some "clean cockpit" textures in the user files. I haven't personally used them so I don't know how good they are.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3303911/

I would like to swap between HB's cockpit & this mod in "Customized cockpit" option that doesn't break IC.

We did just add support for custom cockpits though, so hopefully we can rely on the fantastic modding community somewhat on this!

Why isn't this possible yet?

Thank you all for your input guys. However I would like to kindly ask you, to please be careful with the speculations that really lead nowhere. We're not abandoning our promises, they just take time.

A dynamic cockpit system always meant panels swapping around etc, maybe different texturing on some panels and similar stuff like some panels missing, which is realistic for us to achieve. Delivering several entire cockpits, front and back, which 1 (means both) took 4 years to make - is not realistic. You can't just remove textures, you have to replace them. And to do it to our level of standard takes a lot of time, that is something we never meant with giving you a different and unique cockpit experience, and quite frankly, it is a bit much to really expect from us. Our apologies if we were unclear on this, we sure tried not to be, misleading you in this point would not benefit us at all. I also hope that we showed you so far that this is in general something that we don't do.

Talking about readibility and some switch labels being too smudgy, etc, is something entirely else. But a lot boils down to taste, too (apart from that a cockpit can be learned as well). Although being on the worn side of things, our SMEs did approve the cockpit. Paint being painted over paint until it peeled off and similar things were researched as well, not only recreated because "old museum piece". Pictures of aircraft in service in the early 80s exist, that look very similar and show similar wear and tear.

Fact remains, both is correct, worn and not worn. But we opted also for very worn because it gives more character, because it lets us tell many little stories. A lot of the wear is directly connected to its "living conditions". Every tear tells a story that we found in and around the Tomcat, it is meant to let you smell the salty ocean, if you like, things like the paint tell you little stories about who all laid hands on her and contributed to it, little intricacies that have been found and left for you to discover and to dream up alike, if you want, the dirt and smell that makes a racing machine because of the track it races on. Or: the salty spray and spume that makes an aircraft that flies and lands out at sea. Would we have made an airforce aircraft, I doubt we would have shown the aggressivness of salt, for example... But in short: these artistic decisions are not arbitrary, they have meaning, background and purpose.

Some will not feel this at all and have a different taste and associative background. Some will smell the ocean, some won't. And although it really saddens us, that sometimes we cannot please everyone, when it comes to art and taste, this will unfortunately always be the case. Sometimes it can feel a bit like someone stands in front of your painting and makes a wishlist of changes. The difference to the painter being, that we actually appreciate them - uhm, to a certain extend. :music_whistling::D

Hence let us focus on the parts that are realistic to discuss:

1. Readibility of switches, etc... Please note: in VR, apart from the wear, neither DCS nor we set the limit, but VR itself. The balance found was between too tiny and sharp and too big and out of proportion. Leaning in, will probably remain a thing for a while in VR for certain labels and lights etc. But if certain parts pose a particular difficulty for you, please let us know, so we can take a look, VR or non VR of course. That is the least that we can promise.

2. Performance. If you can provide us more about the effect canopy glass makes on your FPS (maybe a side comparison of those who tried the workaround), we will definitely take a look. Please also provide your system specs, mission, track and logs if you can, the more the merrier. We cannot promise you to offer such an option, but we can promise to take a closer look and to think about it. Or maybe we stumble across a solution to optimize performance in a different way, who knows. The more info we get, the more it helps.

As always we will try our best to consider everyone's wishes, but please keep your expectations realistic, too. From our side we stand behind the cockpit and we are quite happy with it, as it is. I hope giving a small insight into the choices we made, helps, and invites you to explore it maybe with a different set of eyes and discover the history within. Thank you.

Thank you ironmike for your comprehensive and yet clear statement. I appreciate the info caus we all know now what HB's point is.

From my side I have to admit that I underrated the amount of work it would be to create a texture set that looks more modern with a better readability.

I hope you are pleased with the fact that I smell the ocean. That's what I meant with masterpiece and great feeling. My problem always was that I don't fly the Tomcat al the time so I'm not used to the switches as I should. Coming back is always a challenge. But I'm certainly willing to take it now that I know that there won't come an option texture.

Thanks to all HB team for your great job. And thank you for taking the time to make your point clear.

I was flying yesterday on a long flight, looking around the cockpit in VR and noticed the sealant smudges around the canopy frame, thinking if that mechanic was working in business aviation they would be fired. Then I noticed the Anti-Fog piccolo tubes, running around the bottom of the canopy. Never thought about how the anti-fog was routed, but what a simple but elegant solution. The detail is really astonishing. Even the P-Clamps are modeled. Sadly its also probably lost on most people.

I was flying yesterday on a long flight, looking around the cockpit in VR and noticed the sealant smudges around the canopy frame, thinking if that mechanic was working in business aviation they would be fired. Then I noticed the Anti-Fog piccolo tubes, running around the bottom of the canopy. Never thought about how the anti-fog was routed, but what a simple but elegant solution. The detail is really astonishing. Even the P-Clamps are modeled. Sadly its also probably lost on most people.

These things take time to discover, and some are meant more for the connesseur, others more for folks with less interest in it. But behind every decision our art team made, rest assured there is a story to be found or to be invented. :)

I think its great. This is as much a story of Grumman as it is of Heatblur modelling the Cat. The F-14 got me into Aerospace, and while I never did get to work on it in person, I do get to work with some of its legacy. Seeing things like that makes me helps you realize how little has changed in 60 odd years, and or maybe just how far ahead the engineers were at the time.

As for textures, maybe people that haven't been in real A/C, are disillusioned with the reality of what a plane really looks like in the field.

As for textures, maybe people that haven't been in real A/C, are disillusioned with the reality of what a plane really looks like in the field.

Just a question without offence: Are the textures of the F/A-18C unrealistic?

Don't get me wrong. I find the Tomcat very nice for those who want it worn.

But I don't think it has to be like that just to be realistic.

There are lots of planes in DCS World. The Tomcat is the first that started a discussion about readability like we have here. For good reason.

I accept the developers decision though not to do another texture set. That's not my point.

(btw. you would not believe if I told you which planes I had the chance to sit in ;) )

Fair enough. I have a Vive. So there are numerous labels I can't read. But having flown several GA/Business planes, its pretty normal to see worn labels. I can't read some in the 18 either, so to compensate I have studied guides such as Chuck's, and simply remember where they are. The F-14 really does not have that many. Which as the same as you would do in a real A/C. You wouldn't have time to read the labels anyway. I mean unless you buy an A/C from the factory, it will not be pristine, especially for something subjected to the environment of a carrier.

I don't think comparing it to other modules isn't fair since HB set the bar higher than other developers.

But ok. How about this, just like in real A/C, how expanded use of vintage Dymo Lables for the hard to read ones? Keeps it realistic and makes it readable?

I can appreciate the level of artwork that went into what we see. That being said, art is subject to personal interpretation but when it affects function and the learning environment it is distracting. I am sure a fully trained pilot in type has to wear a blindfold and recite each switch and position from memory before sign off. If you can’t read it you can’t memorize and commit it to memory.

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I can appreciate the level of artwork that went into what we see. That being said, art is subject to personal interpretation but when it affects function and the learning environment it is distracting. I am sure a fully trained pilot in type has to wear a blindfold and recite each switch and position from memory before sign off. If you can’t read it you can’t memorize and commit it to memory.

Look I hear what you are saying. Just saying ironically though the worst worn A/C are usually the trainers.

We can all decide with our purse if we like the textures of the F-14 or not. That's why there's no F-14 in my signature.

You should listen to your customers as at least 80% of F14 players are compaining about this, you did a GREAT and AMAZING job with this aircracft but making the cockpit so dirty and unreadble was a wrong choice.

 

 

:smilewink:

Oh man, I really wonder where you got this number from. :doh:

What a topic to butcher that it has to be repeated from time to time again that this is realistic of a cockpit to be this worn and dirty because of where it is stationed. It's on a boat in the waters, you will see metal corrosion and paint chipping because of the saltwater splashing up against the sides of the hull and salt hailing in like a shot contest of who can jizz their way off a carrier catapult the fastest, as Crash Laobi had once said. The SME's that HB has, as well as F-14 pilots have also stated that there were even worse cockpits than this one where they had applied paint over already chipped paint and the effect would come much worse.

I highly doubt this 80% of players that you mention are complaining about this. 80% of people are complaining about the bugs that keep coming that need to be addressed much more than the aesthetic appeal of the cockpit. There are mods publicly available in the ED user files section and the "Mods & Apps" sub-forum for you to make the cockpit look cleaner.

Oh man, I really wonder where you got this number from. :doh:

 

 

 

What a topic to butcher that it has to be repeated from time to time again that this is realistic of a cockpit to be this worn and dirty because of where it is stationed. It's on a boat in the waters, you will see metal corrosion and paint chipping because of the saltwater splashing up against the sides of the hull and salt hailing in like a shot contest of who can jizz their way off a carrier catapult the fastest, as Crash Laobi had once said. The SME's that HB has, as well as F-14 pilots have also stated that there were even worse cockpits than this one where they had applied paint over already chipped paint and the effect would come much worse.

 

 

 

I highly doubt this 80% of players that you mention are complaining about this. 80% of people are complaining about the bugs that keep coming that need to be addressed much more than the aesthetic appeal of the cockpit. There are mods publicly available in the ED user files section and the "Mods & Apps" sub-forum for you to make the cockpit look cleaner.

Most of the 80% in this thread aren’t speaking up about mere aesthetics, it’s about usability and readability. How do our developers find out what we want from future endeavors - feedback. That’s what’s being offered here.

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By rewriting history? Ignoring what the real planes were/are like, to introduce a more usable version because "80%" have decided they don't like what it was like even though all the real pilots had to deal with it, and many, many users use it just fine in DCS?

By rewriting history? Ignoring what the real planes were/are like, to introduce a more usable version because "80%" have decided they don't like what it was like even though all the real pilots had to deal with it, and many, many users use it just fine in DCS?

I'm quite sure the cockpits of the F-14 delivered by Grumman haven't been that filthy when they left the factory. Being deployed first in 1974, they probably didn't have such a worn cockpit in the 1980s. Maybe in 2000 or later, when they got retired. And HB probably scanned the cockpit more than a decade later. No wonder it looks so filthy... :music_whistling:

I'm so appalled by this that I am not sure by whether I should be respecting what was just said, or to even be annoyed.

"Being deployed first in 1974, they probably didn't have such a worn cockpit in the 1980s."

That is for the F-14A, and yes they were right off of the factory line. But cockpits don't become dirty overnight, that's not how time works. It was over a decade only until the F-14B came into service in the late 1980s, giving 13 years for the time to develop. There would have been plenty of lines for saltwater to corrode the metal and cause the paint to chip as well.

"And HB probably scanned a cockpit [...] a decade later. No wonder it looks so filthy."

HB did scan a cockpit over a decade later, and it was at the Pacific Museum. But that does not mean that the Museum did not clean the cockpit, they do have to keep it under restored conditions. The fact that it was photo scanned somewhere does not conclude the fact that the environment it was from during that time exactly caused the filth it has.

All the equipment I used in the military was a mish mash of old and new. You'd PMCS it every day, and replace what the manuals deemed replaceable. So some knobs and buttons might look newer or older than others. You could usually tell how old a piece of equipment was by looking at the scuffed edges and how many layers of paint were visible. So I get it, but that said...

There are currently some user created texture mods that address some of the VR and readability needs without compromising the general look, unfortunately they fail IC check.

What would it take to get these set up as IC compatible custom cockpits?

Just to outline it again, we very much do appreciate all your input about readability, etc, I just wanted to avoid false hopes or disappointed expectations.

Please let us know exactly which switches impede your learning process or where it is specifically difficult in VR etc, so we can take a closer look.

Taste will always be taste and has to be respected on both sides unequivocally - I think that is clear.

Norbot I am sorry to hear that our choices did not convince you to get it, my apologies for that. I hope you will give it a second chance one day though.

What would it take to get these set up as IC compatible custom cockpits?

I don't think that is a question that we can answer on our side, but I will check.

Something to keep in mind about the complaints about HB having scanned the jet after years of being in a museum: at least in the US, museums with accessible cockpits and good finances tend to exercise the opportunity using contacts in various DoD firms to increase the qualitative level of an aircraft on display via decommissioned depot hardware, and at a bare minimum, do what they can to keep hardware in the condition received.

That is to say, they don't get worse- those with the support tend to get better.

Complete cockpit birds are especially protected and maintained as best as they can. So to be mad that a line jet which was delivered, demilled, and has been kept in as controlled condition as possible is dirty and worn- you're missing the point, because that's the condition it was in during service.

And having walked through Oceana squadron hangars at the top of sequester, it ain't that far off even now.

Love the cockpit textures, looks very realistic and immersive, and what I would expect of a typical NAVY fighter in heavy use out at sea. Just my opinion of course, but I think they nailed it, and to me its arguably the most well done cockpit in the game.

Please let us know exactly which switches impede your learning process or where it is specifically difficult in VR etc, so we can take a closer look.

The ARC 182 both mode selectors have no marking and its impossible to know what's selected.

Just had yet another look at the cockpit and I'm hard pressed to spot anything that's problematic at least in the pilot seat. If SME says it's ok I'm fine with it and the pit looks great. I think the lack of newer HUD and some Grumman design choices makes pilots look at the gauges more and since they are not that big it forces them to focus more at the small digits compared to other modern jets. Altitude, fuel, TACAN... these need to take a closer look at.

I get what you were trying to achieve, IronMike, but I still would prefer new cockpit. In a simulator I want to get into a new aircraft and make history myself :)

Just an opinion - not a request for anything.

Love the cockpit textures, looks very realistic and immersive, and what I would expect of a typical NAVY fighter in heavy use out at sea. Just my opinion of course, but I think they nailed it, and to me its arguably the most well done cockpit in the game.

It is. There is just a few arm chair pilots who think they know better and have very strong feelings, which they have the right to express, but cant accept when the receiver of this expression does not bend to their will..

Just to outline it again, we very much do appreciate all your input about readability, etc, I just wanted to avoid false hopes or disappointed expectations.

 

Please let us know exactly which switches impede your learning process or where it is specifically difficult in VR etc, so we can take a closer look.

 

Taste will always be taste and has to be respected on both sides unequivocally - I think that is clear.

 

Norbot I am sorry to hear that our choices did not convince you to get it, my apologies for that. I hope you will give it a second chance one day though.

Warning caution panel annunciators and master warning light need to be more visible please. At a minimum..

When you do F-14A, please consider factory fresh!

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