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Old 05-22-2019, 06:35 PM   #291
Exorcet
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Exorcet, others - I don't think this is the right game for you, unfortunately.
I'll have to disagree as ultra realistic flight simulation is my preferred game genre.



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This is a study level simulation that requires a vast amount of effort and practicing to gain proficiency.
It also has a game mode. DCS is directed at a non-homogeneous user base. But let's put that aside. That the game offers easy modes take away nothing from the simulation aspect, which is what confuses me when it comes to negative responses toward additional easy features. There is one argument against that I find very easy to understand, which is that easy modes take dev resources. Everyone brings up every other point though and I don't see why those matter when you don't have to use assists.


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If this is too hard for you, or others, then I suggest a recent arcade game (that I won't mention due to rules) that has all of the aspects of "easy" you are searching for. You can even play in on a console or PC and has HOTAS support.
Not sure what you're referring to, but I suspect that if it doesn't accurately simulate military aircraft that many in this thread wouldn't be interested. Wanting an easy feature does not in any way equate to wanting an arcade game. Just like using labels in DCS does not in any way correlate with flying in game mode. It's very reasonable to like labels while preferring every other option set to maximum realism.


As for me personally, as I hadn't performed AAR in DCS for some time, I actually went and did it quite a few days ago to make sure the complaints I had against it were valid (since the sim often changes). I was perfectly able to fill up in one attempt, though having not practiced it was sloppy and I did disconnect a couple of times. I'll say that the tanker AI (at least for the boom tanker) is no longer a problem, not sure if it was improved at some point. Visibility of the position lights under the tanker is very poor though. I can't see them on my screen without zooming in to the point that I lost spatial awareness or sight of my instruments. In any case I managed to refuel anyway. My position has nothing to do with how hard or not something is. My position comes out of the fact that options aren't binding, and thus having easy refuel or something similar takes nothing away from the sim.


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The time you are sitting here arguing with us you could be training and learning to overcome a realistic aspect of flying a simulated jet fighter. There is a lot of advice in this thread, all very good, that could help you and others over this very real challenge.
That's only the case if the computer you're at has DCS on it. Again though I don't see what ability has to do with the argument.


If easy options are something to argue against, I'd like to see a reason why. I can't really say that someone doing things differently is much of a reason to be upset. If the request was to dumb down refueling so that you could not do it realistically, I would be against that instantly with no room for negotiation. That's not happening here.


I feel like we'd all be better off just letting people do what they want when it doesn't effect us, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:38 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Revelation View Post
No, a study sim is such that you take the time to learn to do things correctly, not make this easier for your impatience and lack of dedication.
Ultimate realism means starting with a prop plane, flying the sim for an hour then it uninstalling itself because you're not in the top 0.01% of people who didn't get chopped.

DCS strives towards as much realism as possible. Adding features to make it less overwhelming to more casual players widens the player base without sacrificing realism for those who want it. ED understands that; why you don't is more of a puzzle.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:45 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel View Post
Ultimate realism means starting with a prop plane, flying the sim for an hour then it uninstalling itself because you're not in the top 0.01% of people who didn't get chopped.

DCS strives towards as much realism as possible. Adding features to make it less overwhelming to more casual players widens the player base without sacrificing realism for those who want it. ED understands that; why you don't is more of a puzzle.
You miss the point of the conversation. If ED adds an easy refuel option, cool. Where I take issue is when an intellectual dishonest person claims it will teach people AAR.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:59 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Revelation View Post
You miss the point of the conversation. If ED adds an easy refuel option, cool. Where I take issue is when an intellectual dishonest person claims it will teach people AAR.
Ah now that could well be true, good point.

May I suggest a bit more... diplomacy? You've put your point across much better in that short paragraph than in the last few pages. Just a thought.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:04 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Revelation View Post
Negative Ghost-Rider. Please cite the specific instance and I will thoroughly dismantle your claim.
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Originally Posted by Revelation View Post
Okay, let me rephrase it for the lack of understanding on your part. As a USAF Veteran I know how it actually works - thanks though.
I look forward to you failing to explain how this is not a case of attacking the characteristic and authority of the other party as opposed to the actual substance of the argument.

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Zoom etc
Just because you can land perfectly fine without the use of zoom does not mean that zoom does not make landing easier. As a system, it is also more of a simulation of the variable-focus (on both senses) eye than a fixed-magnification binocular.

System failures being a core gameplay feature does not make them any less of an option — in fact, it's what makes them an in-game option — and the ability to turn then on or off makes landings easier (or harder, if that's what you want instead).

Ignoring ATC is an option available to you. Since ATC is… ehrm… of a questionable quality and usefulnes, let's say, ignoring what it says cuts out part of the landing process and generally makes it easier.

Bombing the runway does indeed keep traffic away. Your ignorance of this quirk does not change the fact that it is an option, and that it makes landings easier.

Removing the chance of exploding on impact or of even breaking anything does, in spite of your assertion to the contrary, actually make landings easier. This is an in-game option available in DCS.

Active pause lets you do all the landing prep without having to worry about accidentally becoming a control tower hood ornament. This makes landings a bit easier.

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Nothing you have cited so far amount to the plane landing itself without user input.
That was never the question. The question was whether there were were options to make landings easier. You said there weren't. All the aforementioned options prove you wrong. At no point have you been able to demonstrate that they either don't exist in the game or that they can't make landings easier. Your ignorance of or incredulity at the fact that these options make landings easier does not constitute an argument, much less an actual refutation of this fact.

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No. As I said, verbal or visual queues that help you get in position would be a good thing for new pilots. Easy Refuel where the system takes control will not teach you how to perform AAR and is no where in-line with your scenarios above that are an absolutely conflation.
It will show you how to do AAR, which immediately means it can teach you about how you should do AAR. Same as any other instruction by showing. Moreover, as mentioned again and again, there is nothing that categorically demands that easy refuel must take complete control — it is only easy refuel; not automatic refuel. Easy radio does not automate all things radio — it removes (most of) the part where you have to fiddle with frequencies. Easy game mode does not automate the game or your flying — it removes (some of) the avionics fiddling and in some cases alters the flight model (which actually makes it more difficult at times, funnily enough).

Analogously, there is nothing inherent about “easy refuel” that means it must mean a fully automated process, or that you cannot possibly learn from it or use it as a teaching tool. Even at its most extreme, you can learn from it; more sensible implementations would let you learn even more.

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A straw man argument is if you were making an argument for easy refuel and I stated you were for making all of DCS to setup in game mode.
…or if I'm making an argument for easy refuel that just makes refuelling… well… easier, and you refute an argument where easy refuel automates the process.

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It unequivocally does.
No. It only ostensibly refutes the argument that your vision of easy refuelling would not achieve what I'm talking about, but since I'm not basing my argument and my speculations about what it would achieve on your vision, that refutation does not affect my stance in the slightest.

There is more to AAR than fine motor skills. Easy refuelling could trivially teach you those things. Others here have mentioned watching youtube videos as a way to learn how to AAR, and that's true as well, even though that does not have the interactivity and responsiveness that even a fully automated implementation would offer.

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I do know that easy refuel will not teach you how to perform AAR.
No. You only feel that your vision of easy refuel would not teach some people. I have no problem visualising an easy refuel option that would; I also have no problem seeing that even your vision would offer some lessons that you can learn from. Again, argument from incredulity does not actually hold that much water…

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Man-up and take responsibility.
Will you?

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I have dismantled your position from top to bottom
No. You have only shown that you don't even understand a rather central portion of the game, and you have only offered fallacies (with the odd interspersed unqualified “nuh-uh” to spice things up) as attempted counters to my facts. At no point have you ever actually been able to address or disprove anything I've said.

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Actually, because I do care I am telling people to do it the right way instead of gaming the system with an easy refuel option and never developing the fine motor control to be able to perform AAR on their own merit.
…and as it happens, none of that is an argument against it being implemented. If it's there, like you say, “cool have at it”; or as you also say, “if ED adds an easy refuel option, cool”. The argument we're having is whether or not it should be added to the game — you're cool with that, and so am I except for a different reason: I see how it could be a useful tool for people who want to learn to AAR.

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So citing how someone can learn to perform AAR with an xBox control and calling your excuses invalid spurred the responses.
I don't know what excuses you're referring to here, but they certainly weren't mine. You made a categorical assertion that “excuses are invalid”, which is a pretty blatant disrespect for other people's opinion, preferences, and time. This is further reinforced by how you've continued to disparage those who do not live up to your standards of patience and “dedication”. You refuse to own up to this immediate show of disrespect that slipped out the very instant a differing opinion to yours was uttered.

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No, a study sim is such that you take the time to learn to do things correctly
[citation needed]

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Old 05-22-2019, 09:28 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
I look forward to you failing to explain how this is not a case of attacking the characteristic and authority of the other party as opposed to the actual substance of the argument.
Citation needed.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Just because you can land perfectly fine without the use of zoom does not mean that zoom does not make landing easier. As a system, it is also more of a simulation of the variable-focus (on both senses) eye than a fixed-magnification binocular.
The fact that you cannot grasp the difference between a zoom and a computer assisted/controlled AAR is beyond intriguing....

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
System failures being a core gameplay feature does not make them any less of an option — in fact, it's what makes them an in-game option — and the ability to turn then on or off makes landings easier (or harder, if that's what you want instead).
We've been over this, you are wrong and you are "reaching" to try and justify your position that easy refuel will train people to be better at AAR.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Ignoring ATC is an option available to you. Since ATC is… ehrm… of a questionable quality and usefulnes, let's say, ignoring what it says cuts out part of the landing process and generally makes it easier.
Again, completely unrelated. Maybe it would be easier for you to just uninstall DCS....

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Bombing the runway does indeed keep traffic away. Your ignorance of this quirk does not change the fact that it is an option, and that it makes landings easier.
No it does not. Maybe you should learn how to better design missions so you don't have to engage in fratricide to land.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Removing the chance of exploding on impact or of even breaking anything does, in spite of your assertion to the contrary, actually make landings easier. This is an in-game option available in DCS.
Incorrect. The landing is not easier, simply that the repercussion from a bad landing are non-existent. You still have no clue what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Active pause lets you do all the landing prep without having to worry about accidentally becoming a control tower hood ornament. This makes landings a bit easier.
No. It does not make landing easier. You still have to land. Active Pause simply allows one to take a "breather." By your logic Active Pause makes you better at AAR, when in fact it does not.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
That was never the question. The question was whether there were were options to make landings easier. You said there weren't. All the aforementioned options prove you wrong. At no point have you been able to demonstrate that they either don't exist in the game or that they can't make landings easier. Your ignorance of or incredulity at the fact that these options make landings easier does not constitute an argument, much less an actual refutation of this fact.
You still have to land the plane, it takes your skill to put it on the ground. Nothing you have listed makes it easier to put it on the ground. You are ignorant of basic logic.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
It will show you how to do AAR, which immediately means it can teach you about how you should do AAR. Same as any other instruction by showing. Moreover, as mentioned again and again, there is nothing that categorically demands that easy refuel must take complete control — it is only easy refuel; not automatic refuel.
Whether it takes complete control or partial control you are not learning the fine motor skills needed to AAR on your own and you are no better for it. That is a plain and simple fact that you continually ignore.

For it to show you how to do AAR it has to have complete control. Unless you are referring to visual or audio queues that I have already mentioned would be good for new pilots.


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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Easy radio does not automate all things radio — it removes (most of) the part where you have to fiddle with frequencies.
Right, you don't have to adjust the frequency or use the correct radio. You just press a button and the system does it for you. It's "easy" and you fail to grasp the basics of how the radios in game work. I cannot count the number of times people gotten a server that had easy radios disabled and they complained because they didn't know how to get it go work.

You actually just proved my point in regards to easy refuel.



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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
IEasy game mode does not automate the game or your flying — it removes (some of) the avionics fiddling and in some cases alters the flight model (which actually makes it more difficult at times, funnily enough).
And if you only flew in game mode you wouldn't know how any o the systems worked and you would be completely ineffective in sim mode. Again, you just proved my point...

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
…or if I'm making an argument for easy refuel that just makes refuelling… well… easier, and you refute an argument where easy refuel automates the process.
Maybe you cannot read where I have said any form prevents you from learning the fine motor skills of AAR. Quit being disingenuous, you have not "gotchas" to rely on here.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
No. It only ostensibly refutes the argument that your vision of easy refuelling would not achieve what I'm talking about, but since I'm not basing my argument and my speculations about what it would achieve on your vision, that refutation does not affect my stance in the slightest.
You obviously have no clue what my vision is. You clearly haven't read my responses as I have specifically not said strictly complete control.


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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
There is more to AAR than fine motor skills. Easy refuelling could trivially teach you those things. Others here have mentioned watching youtube videos as a way to learn how to AAR, and that's true as well, even though that does not have the interactivity and responsiveness that even a fully automated implementation would offer.
Day refueling CANNOT teach you the fine motor skills for AAR. What planet do you live on where you believe such nonsense?


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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
No. You only feel that your vision of easy refuel would not teach some people. I have no problem visualising an easy refuel option that would; I also have no problem seeing that even your vision would offer some lessons that you can learn from. Again, argument from incredulity does not actually hold that much water…
My vision, as you put it, is based off of the Flight Sim industry of the past several decades. So do tell, genius, what is your vision that is so hard for us mere mortals to grasp?

Divine fallacy has no place in this discussion as it was not used. You keep trying to catch-phrases to support your position and you are falling flat on your face.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
Will you?
Wow, that is so profound of you. I can AAR I don't need to man-up and take responsibility for my lack of dedication. Again, will you?

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
No. You have only shown that you don't even understand a rather central portion of the game, and you have only offered fallacies (with the odd interspersed unqualified “nuh-uh” to spice things up) as attempted counters to my facts. At no point have you ever actually been able to address or disprove anything I've said.
Actually I have. You simply refuse to accept facts.

You keep bringing up how zoom makes it easier to land - BS. Zoom has nothing to do with landing.

You then state that bombing runways makes it easier to land - BS. Fratricide is not a solution to bad mission design.

You then state invulnerability makes it easier to land - BS. This will not entice a player to learn the mechanics of a proper landing and will result in bad habits. This does not make landing easier.

You then state ignoring ATC makes it easier to land - BS. ATC does nothing for or against landing. ATC does not guide you in nor does it fly the aircraft for you.

You cited that easy refuel will help train people at AAR - BS. Pilots will not learn the fine motor skills to stay in position to get gas. You have provided no facts or substance to substantiate your position.



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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
…and as it happens, none of that is an argument against it being implemented. If it's there, like you say, “cool have at it”; or as you also say, “if ED adds an easy refuel option, cool”. The argument we're having is whether or not it should be added to the game — you're cool with that, and so am I except for a different reason: I see how it could be a useful tool for people who want to learn to AAR.
As I have said - very clearly for the laymen to understand.

It's not needed as it will not benefit someone that wants to learn AAR properly. If ED adds it fine. Simply admit that you do not have the patience and discipline to learn to do it right. Quit hiding behind the BS you can "train" with it.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
I don't know what excuses you're referring to here, but they certainly weren't mine. You made a categorical assertion that “excuses are invalid”, which is a pretty blatant disrespect for other people's opinion, preferences, and time. This is further reinforced by how you've continued to disparage those who do not live up to your standards of patience and “dedication”. You refuse to own up to this immediate show of disrespect that slipped out the very instant a differing opinion to yours was uttered.
Yes, your excuses are invalid for not learning AAR the proper way. Just admit you don't have what it takes and you need an easy button. We can all get on with our day.

Any disparagement you feel you have suffered is brought on solely by your ineffective communication, false declarations of attacks, personal strife and general lack of intelligence to have a respectable conversation.

Again, YOU get the level of respect YOU deserve.

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Originally Posted by Tippis View Post
[citation needed]
Are you seriously so obtuse you don't know what a study-level sim is?
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:30 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel View Post
Ah now that could well be true, good point.

May I suggest a bit more... diplomacy? You've put your point across much better in that short paragraph than in the last few pages. Just a thought.
I'd love to Flamin, I really would. Simply put, other posters have refused to engage in civil dialogue and they get the level of respect they deserve. While it's not constructive to the topic, watching them lie and engage in dishonest debate tactics is fun...
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:24 PM   #298
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Citation needed.
How many do you need? See how easy that was?
Now, would you care to explain how it was not a case of attacking the characteristic and authority of the other party as opposed to the actual substance of the argument?

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The fact that you cannot grasp the difference between a zoom and a computer assisted/controlled AAR is beyond intriguing....
It is also a completely new red herring you're introducing since that's never been a connection I've ever made.

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We've been over this, you are wrong
Prove it. You haven't actually been able to offer up any evidence to suggest anything of the kind yet, other than to make increasingly abusive statements that turn out to be factually false.

Again, all of the factors I've listed exist in the game and make landing easier. You have yet to actually demonstrate the opposite of either. You're just saying “no” without offering any argumentation or reasoning behind it.

If you doubt the facts I presented, test them. You'll see that they do what I'm telling you. If you happen to come across some instance where they don't, you can show it off and actually prove me wrong, which just saying “no” does not.

And yes, being able to see the airport more clearly makes landing easier. Not being able to break the plane does indeed make landing easier. Not having to contend with other traffic (which can be done in numerous ways, none of which have anything to do with bad mission design — that's just some nonsense strawman you injected because you apparently don't understand how parts of the game works) makes landing easier. Not having to juggle as many tasks at the same time (which can be done in numerous ways) makes landing easier.

Those are the arguments being put forward. If you think none of that is true, please explain why. Just saying “no” is not an explanation or proof.

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You still have to land the plane, it takes your skill to put it on the ground.
Yes, but there are numerous options to make it easier to put the plane on the ground; to reduce the skill requirement; to reduce task saturation — in other words, to make landing easier.

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Whether it takes complete control or partial control you are not learning the fine motor skills needed to AAR on your own and you are no better for it. That is a plain and simple fact that you continually ignore.
I addressed that: there is more to AAR than fine motor skills. You can keep harping on about those motor skills as much as you like, but until you actually address the point you stand no chance of actually mounting a rebuttal. The fact of the matter is that there are more things to learn. An easy refuel option could be fully capable of teaching those things. Address that.

So no, I didn't ignore it — you were just too locked into your singular focus to notice.

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You actually just proved my point in regards to easy refuel.
Actually, you completely missed the point: that “easy” does not mean “automatic”. All of those instances demonstrate different variations of “easy” that simply entail skipping over certain parts, but leaving others for the player to deal with.

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You obviously have no clue what my vision is.
You were quite clear in the false dichotomy you painted: “either the virtual pilot puts in the effort to fly in close proximity to the tanker in proper position to connect to the basket or boom and maintain it in order to take on fuel or the game does it for you.”

As previously explained there are many in-between stages that would let and/or require the pilot to observe and/or handle on their own the different tasks involved.

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Day refueling CANNOT teach you the fine motor skills for AAR. What planet do you live on where you believe such nonsense?
That is 100% your nonsense. I have never suggested anything of the kind.

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Divine fallacy has no place in this discussion as it was not used.
Your entire line of argumentation boils down to not believing that an easy refuel option can teach people anything about AAR. You keep bringing it up in every part of your response. You assert this without any evidence other than your incredulity to back it up. Meanwhile, others know fully well that learning by observation is a thing; that instruction by demonstration is a thing; that there is more to AAR than simple fine motor skills — visuals in particular; that instructional videos have helped people in learning how to AAR. All of which trumps your belief that it cannot possibly happen.

You're quite right: arguments from incredulity have no place in this discussion, but you keep using them — they are the cornerstone of your entire spiel.

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I can AAR I don't need to man-up and take responsibility for my lack of dedication.
That was not the question. I ask again: will you man up and take responsibility for your initial hostility?

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Actually I have.
Again, you're just listing a bunch of “no”:s — assertions that you have not actually proven or even argued to be true, or which are just gross misrepresentations of what I'm even saying.

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It's not needed as it will not benefit someone that wants to learn AAR properly.
Are you saying that observation does not help learning? That demonstration is not a teaching tool? That breaking down a problem into digestible parts does not help with understanding? Again, you only throw out that assertion, and the only argument you have in its favour is to speak of fine motor skills as if that was the only thing AAR consisted of.

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Yes, your excuses are invalid
What are “my” excuses, pray tell? And just to be clear: you must be able to quote me on them or it's just more BS strawman you've invented because of your complete inability to actually base any of your arguments on something remotely related to reality.

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Are you seriously so obtuse you don't know what a study-level sim is?
That wasn't the question. Could you please for once actually provide an answer? Where did you get that definition of study sim from?

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