Sucking in general with all WWII planes

Hey guys,

Not sure where to post this as it's a general WWII DCS planes question, and not specific to one plane, but I figured I start here and maybe go to the individual sub forums when I know where I need to go.

I started flying the WWII exclusively as of few days ago(been in and out of DCS for years now). I got the normandy/asset combo and got P51, FW190 and the spitfire.

I've flown in WWIIOL back in the day (2000) and loved the ME109 and the spitfire. No other WWII sims really... I also have my PPL w/IFR, so I have some IRL flying experience as well (some knowledge of flight).

I understand the P51, FW190 and ME109 are not really turn fighters, but really boom and zoom. Spitfire is more of a turn and burn kind of plane.

Well I've been flying the P51, and I'm just all over with the plane, if you aren't careful with that plane, you bleed speed SO fast, and stalling from aoa. FW190 seems more stable, but just can't turn.

I'm OK with the spitfire as I can outturn a 109 and eventually get on his tail, but there's gotta be a way I learn how to fly the P51 and FW190 more efficiently. (Don't have 109 yet. I feel like I wasted 100 bucks yesterday because I can't fly these things worth a damn! lol)

Looking for some suggestions... I'm flying against the AI (109s) in easy setting via instant action for now.

I like the FW190 because of the auto prop, which is one less thing for me to worry about, but I can't even turn with a P51 in that thing!

I have X55 setup and perhaps I need to set curves and saturations.

What kind of flying should I be doing when I'm in a P51 or FW109 and the enemy is on my tail? slight climb and hope I can get out of the enemy's gun range? steep climb? dip down, make speed and then spring up? I'm so lost :doh:

Guide me in the right direction please!

First of all: You didn't waste the money :-)

With the P51 I generally try to keep my energy state high. Against the 109 it is hard to win if you start an engagement on equal terms. The 190 can be outturned by the P51, though.

If you have a 190 or 109 on your tail the best thing you can usually do is flying scissors to make your enemy overshoot. Don't try to climb away because the German planes climb and accelerate better.

That's at least what I think. Hope that helps you a bit.

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Don't get discouraged. The WWII birds are a joy to fly - more of a feeling that your flying a plane and not a computer. However, all of them in their own way require some time to master engine management, respectively. Once you get that down, then you'll be able to fly the plane at the limits of it's engine output. A major variable that dictates how a dogfight will go, is energy. Once you maximize engine management you'll be able to maintain energy, which will give you a distinctive advantage over you're adversary.

i think the spit feels more forgiving in a low altitude turn fight because that is it's strength: low altitude turning fights - has the smallest turn radius of the current flyable - plays into the spits advantage. Not so with the 51 or the 190 and the 109 for that matter. The latter are higher altitude energy fighters. Get above and try to dive on your adversary in the 190. As far as the 51 is concerned, just stay at medium to high altitudes and utilize good engine management to maintain energy relative to your opponents.

Of course, there is a lot more to it than just energy, but from what i've read it's key to any maneuver - split-s, immelman, etc.. - that will aid you in an encounter.

I hope that helped. These birds are great, they just demand some time to really master. You'll get there.

Don't get discouraged. The WWII birds are a joy to fly - more of a feeling that your flying a plane and not a computer. However, all of them in their own way require some time to master engine management, respectively. Once you get that down, then you'll be able to fly the plane at the limits of it's engine output. A major variable that dictates how a dogfight will go, is energy. Once you maximize engine management you'll be able to maintain energy, which will give you a distinctive advantage over you're adversary.

i think the spit feels more forgiving in a low altitude turn fight because that is it's strength: low altitude turning fights - has the smallest turn radius of the current flyable - plays into the spits advantage. Not so with the 51 or the 190 and the 109 for that matter. The latter are higher altitude energy fighters. Get above and try to dive on your adversary in the 190. As far as the 51 is concerned, just stay at medium to high altitudes and utilize good engine management to maintain energy relative to your opponents.

Of course, there is a lot more to it than just energy, but from what i've read it's key to any maneuver - split-s, immelman, etc.. - that will aid you in an encounter.

I hope that helped. These birds are great, they just demand some time to really master. You'll get there.

When fighting, there's one thing a good pilot will always tell you, only fight with your advantage. The P-51 has only one advantage over the 109 and the 190, and that is maintaining speed in a dive and thus having a lot of energy coming out of a dive. Don't kill your energy by trying to get into a turn fight with any aircraft. Boom and Zoom only.

The only other advantage the P-51 has over the 109 is its role rate. If a 109 gets on your tail, god forbid, you can role quicker and thus change direction quicker than the 109. I've seen videos of players doing this against a 109. If you time it right, every time you role out of the way of the 109 you gain on the 109's deflection, until you can force him into a scissors situation or break off completely. It's not easy, and it takes skill to learn how to do it without killing all your speed, but it can be done.

But the best thing to do is gain and maintain a height advantage. If you don't have it, don't go into the fight. Turn off well in advance and gain height until you have the height advantage. Then boom-n-zoom the 109.

The P51 is not totally B&Z, it is quite a good all rounder. It does turn well but bleeds E under heavy G so just keep the turns fast and dont pull back too hard. Same goes for B& Z. Don't pull too hard when pulling out and it should climb again fast. It does roll quite fast but not as good as the 190.

The Fw190 bleeds E badly in a sustained turn but what it does do well is roll so scissors are your friend, both vertical & horizontal, just don't ever hold a turn when travelling fast as you will soon be travelling slow :-) If someone is on your tail whip it over onto one wing and pull *gently* through about 30 degrees then while the following aircraft is still rolling to follow, you can quickly roll through 180 degrees and pull in the opposite direction. By the time he has started rolling the opposite way to follow, you are already coming back again and he is crossing your nose for a snapshot or maybe to get on his tail. Just don't stay on his tail if he decides to keep turning; pull up maybe and use your fast roll to invert and come down on him again.

The 109 is best used as B&Z. It is very fast in a dive and has an incredible climb rate so your victim can often be left floundering around unable to get his guns on you while you are climbing away out of range ready to come back down on him at your leisure. Being the victim of a good 109 pilot is like being an egg stealer being attacked by mama eagle :-) Even flying level at high speed the 109 climbs likes a rocket but let it get slow and you are dead because you will no longer have that climb. It actually turns very well at just above the stall but if you don't stay in that turn and win it you are helpless. Also stay high. I mentioned earlier that the 109 dives fast so if a spit has climbed up to you and B&Z is no longer an option and the Spit will probably beat you in a turnfight then just dive away. The spit cannot follow and if he tries he will lose more E than you and maybe break up. If he does stay with you then you simply change your speed back into altitude and the spit will not be able to climb as fast or as high so you can then start the B&Z. (the P51 will do better than the spit in dive & climb but still not as good as the 109) If you find yourself low and slow you may as well just bail out :-)

Get a human to practice with. The AI flight model is optimistic. If you're in the states, send me a PM if you'd like to fly.

Get a human to practice with. The AI flight model is optimistic. If you're in the states, send me a PM if you'd like to fly.

Yeah, I'm down for sure! I'll shoot you a PM.

Thanks guys!

I will try out rolling the enemy and see how that works out. I kind of understand the scissor maneuver now. You are pretty much banking left, then banking right and out rolling the guy behind you. This will work well with planes like P51 and FW190 that can roll quickly. eventually he can't keep up and hopefully you get behind him.

I guess I don't like B&Z because you have pretty much one shot at getting them when youre coming down on them. Once you open up, you will have to climb back up and try again, but at this point he's coming after you as well...

I'll have to take you up on the pvp thing we can practice some manuevers.

Yeah, I'm down for sure! I'll shoot you a PM.

 

Thanks guys!

 

I will try out rolling the enemy and see how that works out. I kind of understand the scissor maneuver now. You are pretty much banking left, then banking right and out rolling the guy behind you. This will work well with planes like P51 and FW190 that can roll quickly. eventually he can't keep up and hopefully you get behind him.

 

I guess I don't like B&Z because you have pretty much one shot at getting them when youre coming down on them. Once you open up, you will have to climb back up and try again, but at this point he's coming after you as well...

 

I'll have to take you up on the pvp thing we can practice some manuevers.

You'll get there buddy! Good idea to train with a human.

Also, if you like flying the P-51, make sure to have a wingman for MP. Going 1 on 1 with a 109 is tuff stuff!

I started flying the WWII exclusively as of few days ago(been in and out of DCS for years now). I got the normandy/asset combo and got P51, FW190 and the spitfire.

So my first advice would be "don't give up", many of us have been flying for years and yet we're all still learning. IMO fighting in WWII planes is one of the most challenging things you can do, and it was ages before I could do anything much besides being a target. That's also the fun of it, IMO no-one ever "masters" WWII aerial combat, there is always more to learn and new challenges.

I'm OK with the spitfire as I can outturn a 109 and eventually get on his tail, but there's gotta be a way I learn how to fly the P51 and FW190 more efficiently. (Don't have 109 yet. I feel like I wasted 100 bucks yesterday because I can't fly these things worth a damn! lol)

The Spitfire is a lot easier for beginners. Beginners tend to think in terms of "turn fighting". It's obvious right, the enemy is in there so just turn to shoot at him, right? But there are other ways to fight, and ultimately I believe it to be the weakest plane in the lineup. The P-51, FW 190 and Bf 109 will all dominate it in the end ...

What kind of flying should I be doing when I'm in a P51 or FW109 and the enemy is on my tail? slight climb and hope I can get out of the enemy's gun range? steep climb? dip down, make speed and then spring up? I'm so lost :doh:

Guide me in the right direction please!

So, the key to understanding the P-51 and (especially) the FW190 is to understand these are not fighters that are really meant to fight on even terms. If you are in a poor position then disengage, it's as simple as that. They cannot turn with the 109 or Spitfire, they will lose that game for sure if your opponent is any good. But their big advantage (and why I fly both them basically exclusively) is that they can generally disengage when they like ... providing they have altitude to dive. The P-51 and the FW-190 are the best diving planes in the game, they are also very fast (especially the 190). The reverse is not true, if a Spitfire doesn't like they fight he cannot escape from a determined 190 without a significant energy advantage: the 190 decides whether the fight happens or not, and this is the ultimate advantage.

The easier case is flying the 190 with a Spitfire on your tail. Dive away, head for the deck in a steep dive, full WEP and run like hell. You cannot out-turn him, the Spitfire will win that game every time. But ... the Spitfire will never catch you in a dive, it's much too slow. When you really grok this the Spitfire is not a real threat: you can engage when it suits you, and leave when you want. The only occasions that I've been shot down by a Spitfire in a 190 were due to very poor SA (situational awareness - understanding the position your are in) on my part. When you get more experience there are other ways to defeat a Spitfire: for example high-speed scissors, but understand the basics and know when to leave.

The harder case is in the P-51 with a 109 on your tail. The 109 is faster than the P-51, and in the long run you can't outrun him. It's a very challenging situation for the P-51. Dive and get the combat into a high-speed game of scissors, the P-51 is much better at that. When not under threat try to keep altitude in the P-51, the deck is not your friend! IMO as someone who flies both sides the allied planes are at a serious disadvantage: the 109 and 190 are just better planes.

For the beginner P-51 or 190 pilot, I recommend the following: fight only on your own terms .. with the advantage. Get an energy advantage and then dive in, take the shot, and then zoom away whether you hit or not. Try to keep that advantage, don't turn with your opponent and bleed energy .. he gains energy quickly, you do not. If you feel threatened: leave, make sure you keep enough altitude in the bank to disengage at will (2Km is a good safety margin for a beginner). Air combat is not chivalry, you don't owe your opponent a fair fight. Fight on your terms, or refuse to fight at all, that is the key to the P-51 and the 190.

Whatever you fly, always fly with a wingman. Ideally he watches your tail. If you end up alone, RTB!

If flying with AI, better to fly with a flight. As flight leader, use them aggressively.

Use the "cover me" radio call as often as you can.

What Tomsk says is spot on. Always fight on your terms. WW2 dogfighting is a brutal affair. Avoid being out of altitude, airspeed and ideas!

The WW2 DCS aircraft provided so far present certain challenges. They all have weaknesses and strengths. The fun is learning these characteristics in the DCS modules.

At the moment, the FW190 has the better armament and the best engine! Just try overstressing it? It doesn't like high g turns, but as has been said, rolls very quickly.

The 109 turns very nicely. Those mechanical slats doing their job in the sim. If ED implement the two wing mounted cannons (switch is already in the cockpit), the armament will equal the 190 and give the little fighter a real bite! It will out climb and out dive the current opposition. But with MW boost on, watch the temps!

The Mk 9 Spit out turns everything at low altitude, however it's slow and requires that you constantly watch radiator temps! Try climbing after the opposition, on combat boost and she will boil over! The cannons are great weapons, but you have barely 10 seconds of squirts.

The Pony I find to be better suited to ground attack. I am not sure it can compete with the 109/190 in a low altitude scrap and I haven't tried it at high altitude, where it was historically one of the best escorts for the B-17's.

Ideally the Typhoon and Tempest should be around, but perhaps the Thunderbolt (Jug) may appear at some stage.

Tally Ho, good hunting!

BTW, if you want a thrill, try some dissimilar air combat in a Mig 21. Those clever devs have built PRMG navigation into every WW2 airfield? Now that also begs the question, will we get a ME 262?

First of all be assured you will get better the more you fly a specific plane. Skill (hopefully ) comes with time..

I would suggest to take a plane of your preference and test it out in every situation so you are familiar with its capabilities. How much is needed to turn, when does it stall etc. etc. The rest comes with muscle memory and automatically.

I read the following in your initial post "I have X55 setup and perhaps I need to set curves and saturations."

I know it is a personal preference but I would NEVER do any curve settings. In DCS its pretty simple, you are going to interfere with the internal simulation curves if you do that. Take the BF109 for instance. Like all other planes it has specific curves implemented already which intend to simulate how the real plane might have felt. By programming curves you completely ruin the behaviour of that type of plane. You also take away range where it needed to be.

Just train yourself taking off and landing. Once you mastered this everything else will be much easier, because the planes take a lot of senstive handling at low speeds. Dogfighting is a special task which only works with training BFM mechanics. (youtube has a lot of vids on this)

I am flying for years now and still far off from mastering any of the above. But it helped me a lot to let the curves as they are and trying to find the limits of the plane.

My personal preference in terms of handling are: (easy to hard)

Bf 109 > P51D > FW190 (dont have Spit yet)

Btw. Are my piloting skills really such a disaster or is the Spit AI nearly impossible to kill? Even on the easiest setting the AI guy kicks my ass. It is CONSTANTLY on my tail.

:joystick:

I know it is a personal preference but I would NEVER do any curve settings. In DCS its pretty simple, you are going to interfere with the internal simulation curves if you do that. Take the BF109 for instance. Like all other planes it has specific curves implemented already which intend to simulate how the real plane might have felt. By programming curves you completely ruin the behaviour of that type of plane. You also take away range where it needed to be.

I think you are assigning too much skill to DCS :-) I don't think they adjust anything in terms of controls; they just design the plane itself to perform as the real one in terms of airflows and structural strengths and assume that all control surfaces can be applied at 100% with ease. I remember an interview with a real life P51 pilot who said after flying the DCS version that it was totally unrealistic to fly it without curves because, for example, it was physically impossible to apply more than a fraction of full rudder against the airflow even at the beginning of the take-off run. Same goes for most aircraft in a dive; it lets us apply full up elevator at VNE without any restriction when in almost all cases the pilot would not have the strength. Even in cases where the aircraft was historically known to lock up above certain speeds in a dive, DCS just puts code in to say 'At this speed make the elevator less effective'. The spit is a particular case in point. In DCS without curves it is very easy to rip the wings off accidentally whereas it was quite rare in real life.