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Old 10-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #1
birdstrike
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Default FM-sideslips and drag

scratching my head on this one for a while already.

my friends and i tested a couple of times already in the ww2 aircraft the influence of "sideslips" and the drag that comes with it, or better is expected to come with it...

now, when stepping into the rudder completely and cross controls, you will notice a reduction in speed obviously, so its not a question as to whether drag is modeled or not.

but the amount of lost speed seems a bit on the low end? in the 109 it even accelerates with completely crossed control when in a medium dive with throttle on idle.

but whats really interesting is that when flying with the same planes next to each other in formation, same fuel amount, same engine settings, it doesnt seem to matter at all, if flying coordinated or not. now im not talking about the extremes here, i.e. fully crossed controls, but one flying coordinated with the ball centered, and the other not. normally i would expect the one flying coordinated to get like 5-10kn, or at least noticeable, more out of the aircraft than the one who doesnt. but there is no difference at all noticeable.

so to which extend is this modeled in dcs?

EDIT:
the further i test this, the more dissappointing this gets...flying level full power, you can in either of the ww2 birds fly in a slipped attitude, with the slip ball, or in case of the spit the needle, shifted at least half way to either side of the tube of the gauge, and even more, without losing a single knot in flight. i turned on the info bar and switched to TAS. flew for a couple of minutes in either of the aircraft on deck above the water and get the same dissappointing result in all of them. i really thought dcs is more detailed in this regard.

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-18-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:49 AM   #2
Ala13_ManOWar
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The question is, all of that, compared with what?



If you're comparing with other sims just through the other sims away, they don't and I mean DON'T model drag and gain/drain of speed correctly whatsoever, never did, ever.


If you compare to something you've flown IRL, you should know how different all those aspects are in every model. In my experience a C152 is a thing while C172RG a whole different world with regards to drag and speed drain for instance while they should be similar aeroplanes just one heavier than the other, even sharing a similar wing type and profile.


I can clearly tell in the sim a Spitfire slips in a very different way than 109 for instance, so you mean that compared to what?




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Old 10-19-2018, 09:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
EDIT:
the further i test this, the more dissappointing this gets...flying level full power, you can in either of the ww2 birds fly in a slipped attitude, with the slip ball, or in case of the spit the needle, shifted at least half way to either side of the tube of the gauge, and even more, without losing a single knot in flight. i turned on the info bar and switched to TAS. flew for a couple of minutes in either of the aircraft on deck above the water and get the same dissappointing result in all of them. i really thought dcs is more detailed in this regard.
Although far from a scientific method or description, it may seems you're flying in simple mode instead of full simulator? There are options in the configuration for casual flyers.


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Old 10-19-2018, 09:55 AM   #4
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sure the different types slip differently. thats not the problem here. its that even with a "medium" slip, you dont lose energy whatsoever, but can achieve top speeds in slipped attitude just like you do when flying perfectly coordinated.
only when you start crossing controls severly, it starts to bleed energy.

and no, im not flying in simple mode.

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-19-2018 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:00 AM   #5
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No, I don't think you can get top speeds flying sideslipping, you can't even straight and level if you don't trim and fly the correct settings.


Anyway, you seem to compare to something you want to get and these aircraft fly like RL aircraft do, so don't expect them to behave like anything you've flown in any simulator before.



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Old 10-19-2018, 10:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
No, I don't think you can get top speeds flying sideslipping, you can't even straight and level if you don't trim and fly the correct settings.


Anyway, you seem to compare to something you want to get and these aircraft fly like RL aircraft do, so don't expect them to behave like anything you've flown in any simulator before.



S!
trimming the aircraft as stable as possible will indeed get u slightly faster. thats not the topic here.
with same trim settings, power settings, fuel and ammunition settings, slight to medium slips dont have any impact...not noticeable at least visible when flying in formation with another player slipping on purpose while the other flies coordinated, nor in singleplayer with the info bar open observering the TAS. u will achieve the same top speed and maintain it. in my opening post i already said that i tested this with a couple of friends together, and now u suggest im flying in arcade mode. then u suggest i want this sim to behave like another arcade game?

i dont expect the aircraft in dcs to behave like in other simulations. thats why i fly dcs in the first place. i expect them to behave and show real life behaviour as close as possible.

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-19-2018 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
i dont expect the aircraft in dcs to behave like in other simulations. thats why i fly dcs in the first place. i expect them to behave and show real life behaviour.
And they do.


It's not like from time to time something doesn't get broken in DCS, it happens, but if it is you should go to the specific model forum and ask about it. Is it you realised this now or it happens now but not before? Then something maybe really broken obviously. It is for all the models the same or model specific? Are you in Open Beta or release? All that matters, a post saying "I think this should be like that instead of this" says few.



Or, was it something you expected to get but it's no happening the way you thought? You've to understand many people come to complain based on their previous experience in simulation because it wasn't what they expected to have, but this is a hardcore simulation and yes, real aeroplanes doesn't behave the way most people think they do.


Yes, you can keep slipping in an aircraft the same speed (bit less, but just a bit) you were before, aerobatics do all the time. No top speed, you can't fly in formation at top speed to start with and top speed is achieved under a certain conditions. Yes if you sideslip to land it bleeds airspeed and altitude, but in order to lose speed you've to keep the nose somewhat high, if you dive it won't lose speed it'll gain speed indeed. Try sideslipping idle and keeping your altitude, watch the horizon and altimeter, it's not that easy and the time you start to lose altitude it seems you aren't loosing any speed. And it happens like that IRL, yes, I wouldn't tell if that description is DCS or my flying lessons back then.



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Last edited by Ala13_ManOWar; 10-21-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:50 AM   #8
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please reread my opening post. pretty much all your questions are covered in there.

you cant fly fomration at top speed

interesting as we do this all the time online.

Yes, you can keep slipping in an aircraft the same speed (bit less, but just a bit)

and in dcs its not a bit less, it makes no difference, up until you start to really cross controls. being lazy on the rudder doesnt have any negative impact. and thats my concern.

if you dive it won't lose speed it'll gain speed indeed

and no, it doesnt need to gain airspeed with sideslipping in real life. that completely depends on the type you fly. several types i fly do the exact opposite. they will bleed plenty of speed as soon as you cross controls even if you dive.(well im not speaking of a vertical dive here). and they already lose noticeable speed when not focusing on keeping the ball in center

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-19-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:59 AM   #9
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It doesn't matter if its a 109 or a Cessna or a B-52, flying uncoordinated means more drag, and unless you change your power setting, or your attitude that means less speed. It doesn't make sense that you can fly in formation with one person flying with the ball in the middle, and the other with the ball off to the side and they both are equally fast.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:41 PM   #10
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that makes sence, i wonder if something changed, was broken or if it always was like that. can someone else reproduce? in that case we could make a bug report^^

im off my desktop so i cant attend
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