Actual Resistance Force on the Tomcat Stick

Hi,

I've just changed the cams and springs on my joystick (Virpil VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base + VPC Flightstick Extension - 200mm + VPC V.F.X Grip) to a set of non-centring, thinner ones and received a much softer and lighter movement but I'm not sure if this is actually closer of further away from reality. How hard was operating the stick in the Tomcat? I know describing this is challenging but if you know, at least say if it required as "much" force as moving the stick in the TM HOTAS Warthog. What I've got now is actually much lighter than that.

Thanks

Hi,

 

I've just changed the cams and springs on my joystick (Virpil VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base + VPC Flightstick Extension - 200mm + VPC V.F.X Grip) to a set of non-centring, thinner ones and received a much softer and lighter movement but I'm not sure if this is actually closer of further away from reality. How hard was operating the stick in the Tomcat? I know describing this is challenging but if you know, at least say if it required as "much" force as moving the stick in the TM HOTAS Warthog. What I've got now is actually much lighter than that.

 

Thanks

Your (and 99% of other ppls) sim stick forces are orders of magnitude less than the real aircraft. Normal for the Tomcat is around 4lb (1.8KG) of stick force per G pulled. So for 5G you need to apply 20lb of stick force. At low speed an high AOA that can get to 10lb (4.5KG) per G. Its designed this way to allow the pilot to precisely and predictably pull as much G as they want, and to limit their ability to overstress the aircraft, because they wouldn't be physically capable of doing it, although adrenaline is a hell of a drug hehe so people find a way.

Many aircraft over the years have been produced with control forces that were too light, this results in an aircraft that can be difficult to fly smoothly (pitchy) and also can result in pilots over-stressing the airframe inadvertently. This was an issue with early Spitfires which were notably light in pitch, recovering from dives pilots could often pull far more G then they intended and several pulled so much that the aircraft had structural failures resulting in many crashes. Supermarine rectified this issue by putting a "bob weight" in the control linkage to increase the "Stick force per G" which made the Spitfire much smoother, heavier and more predictable in pitch.

Generally you're going to want to go for the strongest springs you can, and cams with no centre 'notch'. Providing of course that your stick is firmly bolted down.

Your (and 99% of other ppls) sim stick forces are orders of magnitude less than the real aircraft.

This is correct. It also depends on the control system type (reversible vs non-reversible, etc). In general, consumer USB joysticks do not even approach the lightest end of typical control force. The F-14 has an artificial feel system with springs, cams, and bobweights. If someone could make a new FFB stick that could provide 10x the force of a MS Sidewinder 2 I'd buy it yesterday.

i read somewhere the f4 was about 7.5lbs per G with the bobweights. you would not be able to pull 8-9g without using both hands

This is correct. It also depends on the control system type (reversible vs non-reversible, etc). In general, consumer USB joysticks do not even approach the lightest end of typical control force. The F-14 has an artificial feel system with springs, cams, and bobweights. If someone could make a new FFB stick that could provide 10x the force of a MS Sidewinder 2 I'd buy it yesterday.

Yeah ditto...

I know there are some direct drive FFB wheels which are so strong that you have to be careful to let go of the wheel when you crash, in case you hurt your wrists. Alas we don't have something similar for flight simming... yet.

Gotta keep hoping I guess lol.

The safety analysis on a lever arm that can produce 50-100lbs force at the end does get a bit interesting when it's intended to be placed in close proximity to one's bits, yes...

I do need to get that vector space done though. I gather the patents on the haptic feedback thing either recently expired, or are expected to expire soon.

In my first lesson in a Cessna 150 the instructor wound in progressively more and more up trim until I was bracing with both hands on the yoke and my back braced hard on the back of the seat to try and keep the aircraft level, yeah a desktop joystick just does not match that force required.

This is correct. It also depends on the control system type (reversible vs non-reversible, etc). In general, consumer USB joysticks do not even approach the lightest end of typical control force. The F-14 has an artificial feel system with springs, cams, and bobweights. If someone could make a new FFB stick that could provide 10x the force of a MS Sidewinder 2 I'd buy it yesterday.

I was wondering if you had looked at the Brunner CLS-E Force Feedback Joystick. I have the MS Sidewinder FFB 2 and I love it, but if I had the cash I have seriously been looking at the Brunner to run the ViIRPIL VFX "Tomcat" stick. I don't know if anyone has used the CLS-E FFB with DCS World or the Tomcat, but it looks to be a good way to go to get FFB with all the modern comforts of having switchable grips.

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

The safety analysis on a lever arm that can produce 50-100lbs force at the end does get a bit interesting when it's intended to be placed in close proximity to one's bits, yes...

LOL I hadn't considered that.. but good point.. You'd definitely want to be out of the way when it did a "calibration" lol

OpenHornet project is working on a stick design that has 40LB(!) of spring strength.

Keep an eye out for when the design is in beta (if you jump on the discord the step files are already available, but things are being discovered in the prototyping phase that will change stuff)

This looks really cool. Something like this coupled with FFB would be a dream.