[REPORTED]Trees glowing in IR

Why are trees glowing in IR?

This is from an AV-8B through the Litening II TPOD using IR, late evening in the pouring rain. Every second or third tree has the trunk and lowest branches glowing like they were on fire or something.

On top of this, dead vehicles have the exact same heat signature as live vehicles. That's just not possible. A long dead vehicle has no running engine, so nothing to generate heat.

If it is or had just been burning, that should look completely different than a running engine.

But they basically look exactly the same, except the dead vehicle has its gun hanging or some other indicator that it was destroyed.

Exact same thing is happening in the A-10C and the F/A-18C. I was originally going to post it on the A-10C bugs section but it looks like this is a global problem with the Litening pod now. It looks like specific leaf sections of the trees are glowing white.

It's not just the TPOD. In FLIR there are similar issues, but not exactly the same. There are some trees in FLIR that glow, but also some power masts that out of the middle of nowhere glow like red-hot. plus some street lights, but not all, which is weird. It's totally irrational.

ED are overhauling the FLIR system.

ED are overhauling the FLIR system.

I'm almost 60. I don't know how many "two more weeks" I can hold out :smilewink:

Well...

Coming from someone who has actually used FLIR systems....

The actual answer "it depends", or "its complicated" or "it depends on conditions" or "it depends on the system"

The main thing you have to understand is that is that all signatures are relative to the background you are looking at. All thermal systems have a limited dynamic range. Also there are differences between SWIR, MWIR, and LWIR (heat).

In LWIR, during the day (on a warm day), trees look "cool" because they are relative to the ground (rocks/dirt etc) because they are plants they are made of water, which takes more to heat up than a rock. At night its the opposite, trees look "warm" because they cool off much more slowly than the ground under them. Unless you are at the "cross over" point of the diurnal cylce where pretty much everything is at the same temp (this happens 2x a day, I'll let you guess when, or you can cheat and look it up on wikipedia.)

How much of this does DCS model right now? LOFL... Not a damn thing. They just give you some random black and white image based on what their programmers thought looked right enough to "fool the rubes" (thats you btw).

There is a "FLIR" model under development, and hopefully that has some better resemblance to reality.

Oh and as a pro-tip for ED, there are actual programs out there that at least already predict this.

I was kind-of aware how IR-imaging works, although I've never really looked into it.

But my understanding is enough to realize that in a low-light environment, if the landscape is a mix of wooded and clear terrain, that the woods themselves should not look like a huge checkerboard of hot-spots, which then mask -- or disguise -- any vehicles hiding among and around them.

It feels like somebody's f*cking with me, you know, just to "make things interesting". In the middle of a downpour which has been going on for hours everything should be pretty cold... except vehicles with running motors. They should be hot-as-hell in comparison, which is how IR-imaging works.

Hi guys,

As said above it depends. Depends on the IR system.

Five of the planes we make uses three sensors for the EVS - Enhanced Vision System: the IR with short-wave length (the one that senses heat), an IR with a Long-wave IR (that senses unlit or unheated building, hills, trees and so on) and one camera (4x time more sensitive than the human eye) and gets these three signals and mix them to present just one image to the pilot. So, yes, depending on the situation, you may see a tree in it.

I doubt DCS gets that complex and, probably, they just model the short-wave IR sensor, so, the trees “most of the time” will not be present. Note that things that are cooler during the day may be hotter than the environment during the night (like swamps, water ponds and lakes).

So, what I think they should not show it as a Christmas tree, but there is more in the IR industry than most of the public knows.

If you are curious to see an approach using EVS, here goes and example I have (looking through the Head-up display):

All the best,

Sydy

Gentlemen, no one here would ever dispute your expertise when it comes to FLIR technology. For any of you guys that have used it then you're lucky to know the facts about how it works. I have seen many IR images over the years in my work in graphics and photography but I would never consider myself an expert. However, this is not a problem that is related to the actual FLIR function. I've been using the A-10C since just shortly after release and although the original DCS World was no were near as advanced compared to 2.5 and speed trees, you could at least see stuff. I know that they're working on the FLIR rendering code but we keep running into visual problems that make it extremely difficult to do anything in the A-10C or the Harrier. For example, I can't find a tank inside an urban area with trees now like I used to be able to. It's extremely frustrating to try to do a mission where you have to search and all you see is bright white objects.

So I'm posting this series of images so you can see the actual problem. You can see as I approach an area with trees that some of the sprites (whatever you call them now) or leaf sections on the branches are glowing. When I go to CCD they are black instead of the same as the other leaf areas. As I get closer the areas that appear to be white actually start to melt away and when I'm within a few miles they disappear. The reason we keep posting stuff like this is because it is a visual and annoying bug. I know they're working on it but it's important that we keep showing them what we're seeing.

I was kind-of aware how IR-imaging works, although I've never really looked into it.

 

But my understanding is enough to realize that in a low-light environment, if the landscape is a mix of wooded and clear terrain, that the woods themselves should not look like a huge checkerboard of hot-spots, which then mask -- or disguise -- any vehicles hiding among and around them.

 

It feels like somebody's f*cking with me, you know, just to "make things interesting". In the middle of a downpour which has been going on for hours everything should be pretty cold... except vehicles with running motors. They should be hot-as-hell in comparison, which is how IR-imaging works.

Yeah it actually looks exactly like that depending on the conditions, both day and night. Though night at say 3am looks alot cleaner. (not modled in DCS at all)

And the whole vehicles being "HOT" I have no idea where this myth started. Get out of your car after driving it for an hour, super hot right? Now go put your hand on the hood, did you get burned? Its warm at best. Depending on the tank design the rear deck and exhaust will look "warm". And anything really hot (exhaust pipe for example) is usually covered, and in case is really small, so hard to resolve for the sensor.

In your scenario "rain" blocks thermal quite effectively. Or at least degrades it enough at longer distances for it to be worthless. But in "theory" yes IF thermal could see through rain there should be some contrast, but probably not as much as you'd expect. In my experience with wet tanks, they were quite cold (aside from the aformentioned exhaust).

Gentlemen, no one here would ever dispute your expertise when it comes to FLIR technology. For any of you guys that have used it then you're lucky to know the facts about how it works. I have seen many IR images over the years in my work in graphics and photography but I would never consider myself an expert. However, this is not a problem that is related to the actual FLIR function. I've been using the A-10C since just shortly after release and although the original DCS World was no were near as advanced compared to 2.5 and speed trees, you could at least see stuff. I know that they're working on the FLIR rendering code but we keep running into visual problems that make it extremely difficult to do anything in the A-10C or the Harrier. For example, I can't find a tank inside an urban area with trees now like I used to be able to. It's extremely frustrating to try to do a mission where you have to search and all you see is bright white objects.

 

So I'm posting this series of images so you can see the actual problem. You can see as I approach an area with trees that some of the sprites (whatever you call them now) or leaf sections on the branches are glowing. When I go to CCD they are black instead of the same as the other leaf areas. As I get closer the areas that appear to be white actually start to melt away and when I'm within a few miles they disappear. The reason we keep posting stuff like this is because it is a visual and annoying bug. I know they're working on it but it's important that we keep showing them what we're seeing.

That sounds fairly "Reality" based. Unless the object is on fire, its not going to really stand out against other "warm" things. As noted in my example above. And urban environments suck especially due to the clutter and many similar shaped/temped objects. Is it a Car? Is it Truck, is it an APC? Or is it tank?

I'm not disputing your expertise with IR at all and problems seeing objects in certain environments. My point is that this is obviously a graphic representation problem as you can see very clearly in my series of images. That's why the thread was started to begin with.

Problem is still happening, even worse now.

FLIR simulation is a pretty big field of modern avionics simulation, some news about it would be welcome.

ED are overhauling the FLIR system.

Wait, the full blown proper one? Wasn't it said it required replacing/adding texture(layer) for almost everything?

Haven't looked that much into this, but it's interesting, and I can see it's definitely a big load of work.

Hi all

 

I have reported this to the team.

 

Thanks

Thanks Bignewy. I appreciate this is finally being acknowledged. I use the A-10C all the time and it's a really frustrating problem.

I just wanted to say thanks for the work on the TGP, especially in the A-10C. I know you guys are working on all of them but I've seen a huge improvement in the last month or so. It's actually starting to look like I can see things again.

FLIR and Trees

Simple question - why are the trees so hot in thermal.

Its totally unrealistic to the level that they show up.

What is the rationale for this and do you plan to tone these down dramatically?

FLIR rendering has not yet caught up to the update to DCS 2.5. It's in the pipelineto be updated. I hope in 2020.

Simple answer, because its not Flir, its a computer code simulating Flir. Flir uses a lens and a bolometer to create an image that is then computer rendered on a screen. This bolometer, depending on sensitivity can see temperature differences that are very minute and as every item on the planet has essentially an infinite variation in temperature over its surface, thats quite a feat.

The program code could not possibly emulate the minute details of every centimeter of every object in our virtual world. Thus, you get a simulation which is what this is.

Yep understand the mechanics - my point is that the temperature variation between land and trees would not result in the high level of heat signature that we see, variation yes but not akin to say the thermal output from a house etc / vehcile which show as same heat.

Also and appreciate that this would be a step to far but in terms of vehicles its generally where the engine and exhaust system generate higher heat returns - they do not appear uniform as is currently depicted which is fine - the tree's however are a different issue!

It depends. Trees usually show hot at night as they retain temp much better than other things like rocks/dirt. Coversly they look cool during the day. But it all depends on time of day/night how they actually look.