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EFM vs PFM


ESA_maligno

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Greetings.

 

See if any developer C101 can explain something that has been giving me around for a while, particularly since Wags put the second classification of flight models and systems.

 

Am I to understand that the EFM (external) can never equal the PFM of ED and excision (Belsimtek) ?.

 

According Wags says, developers are given the design tool flight models "limited" ....

 

 

The external flight model (EFM), can be more realistic than professional (PFM)?

 

Thank you.


Edited by ESA_maligno
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this post is what I mean....., can be better EFM than PFM?????

 

My understanding of what Wags has posted is the following:

 

PFM is ED's internal framework. It comprises of lots of tools and systems which act upon the airframes (which then passes data to the game engine).

This means you can put the data in, and the systems in place will then feed the correct calculated information to the engine.

 

EFM is the external API to the game engine. Third Party Devs needs to create their own tool box to generate the correct calculated data being fed to the engine.

 

As to your question as to can an EFM be better than PFM....well...as Sobek said: Define better.

 

Maths is maths. A lot of the calulcations on things like fluid dynamics can are going to be using the exact same formulas, and you might be able to put lots of detail into the calulations for the data being fed into the engine, but you'd still be limited as to what ED have let the physics engine let you do.

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Define better.

 

 

Based on the review of Wags on EFM and PFM.

 

I guess the EFM is limited compared to the PFM, Wags says:

 

* "Used by our partner developers, the EFM uses only a part of PFM -. Rigid body physics and model contact forces and moments What are Applied to this rigid body aerodynamics and from any other sources except the contact forces is up to EFM developer."

 

So I must assume that the tool to create the EFM is lower than ED to create PFM ?.

If yes ...., a developer can create models of flight never higher than ED or Belsimtek.

 

If the answer is no ..., a developer can create better or worse models, based on his work, data, calculations, etc ....

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How I imagine(!) it: it is primarily a technical distinction. PFM: ED can access and utilize everything regarding the FM "from the inside" and can produce flight models that can cover every aspect they wish.

The EFM has access to the relevant data via some sort of interface and everything concerning the FM has to get through that interface. This could make some things a bit more complicated to implement, but does not inherently limit the abilities of a EFM.

 

A crude analogy perhaps: a modern TV set. You plug in several cables, HDMI, Scart, Cinch even USB to produce pictures on your TV set. What kind of pictures these are ... is up to you (from your DVD player, BlueRay, etc.). This is the EFM. But the manufacturer of the TV set can also produce pictures - for example fancy menus, info texts, etc. that overlay the TV programme. They could even show movies directly from a built in storage device. This would be the PFM.

But for you, there is no real difference in appearance. You can also feed in movies that contain an overlayed menu or info text - just how it is produced and how flexible it can be used is different.

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"Used by our partner developers, the EFM uses only a part of PFM -. Rigid body physics and model contact forces and moments What are Applied to this rigid body aerodynamics and from any other sources except the contact forces is up to EFM developer."

 

So I must assume that the tool to create the EFM is lower than ED to create PFM ?.

 

This has nothing to do with "tools". There are no tools for building an EFM.

 

What Wags mentioned is that the API already has certain things implemented, namely solid body physics because those are the same for every airplane. But that alone doesn't make an FM. The developer needs to build the rest, the quality of which will determine the overall quality of the FM.

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But for you, there is no real difference in appearance. You can also feed in movies that contain an overlayed menu or info text - just how it is produced and how flexible it can be used is different.

 

Exactly, if what you feed in is rubbish, that's what you will get. The only exception to this analogy (if we're being exact) is that the EFM also gets data from the API (rigid body velocities, orientations) and uses methods (aerodynamics calculations) upon that data to obtain the data it sends back to the API, whereas a DVD player only sends data to the TV.

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Hi,

 

I think Sobek pretty much summed it up (thank you! 8) ), but practically speaking, there is little to no difference.

 

It would be wrong to assume that 3rd party developers can not/do not have access to similar tools and methods that ED/BST use.

 

I must say I was a little perplexed when they made the distinction (AFM fits better because Advanced Flight Model is exactly that - advanced - compared to previous simulators).

 

To use terms like "professional" vs. "external" does suggest that an "external flight model" can't be a "professional flight model", which doesn't really make sense when you think about it.

 

Best way to think of EFM is that ED/BST didn't create it (it's our own work). There are no limitations on the calculations (CPU power excepted), so there is no reason to think that any EFM would be somehow "worse" ore "limited" compared to what ED/BST produce (unless of course, the flight model was actually rubbish, but that is a different matter entirely).

 

Best regards,

Tango.


Edited by Tango
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I must say I was a little perplexed when they made the distinction (AFM fits better because Advanced Flight Model is exactly that - advanced - compared to previous simulators).

 

To use terms like "professional" vs. "external" does suggest that an "external flight model" can't be a "professional flight model", which doesn't really make sense when you think about it.

 

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Hi,

 

I think Sobek pretty much summed it up (thank you! 8) ), but practically speaking, there is little to no difference.

 

It would be wrong to assume that 3rd party developers can not/do not have access to similar tools and methods that ED/BST use.

 

I must say I was a little perplexed when they made the distinction (AFM fits better because Advanced Flight Model is exactly that - advanced - compared to previous simulators).

 

To use terms like "professional" vs. "external" does suggest that an "external flight model" can't be a "professional flight model", which doesn't really make sense when you think about it.

 

Best way to think of EFM is that ED/BST didn't create it (it's our own work). There are no limitations on the calculations (CPU power excepted), so there is no reason to think that any EFM would be somehow "worse" ore "limited" compared to what ED/BST produce (unless of course, the flight model was actually rubbish, but that is a different matter entirely).

 

Best regards,

Tango.

 

That's what I understand.

 

PFM concerns that are professional (salaried people by ED / BST) those who develop and EFM (other people). But that terminology can never refer to the final result.


Edited by ESA_maligno
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  • 3 months later...
This

agreed

suggestion:

The terms integrated professional flight model and modular flight model might make more sense to the lamen, though it doesn't make a real difference once you read the explanation.:pilotfly:


Edited by thinkr

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  • ED Team

I believe PFM was added because ED was doing new more advanced things with their Flight models, add in the fact that everyone out in the Flight Sim world (outside DCS) is claiming to have an AFM now which muddies the waters... I have see the term AFM used with pretty much every sim out there now.

 

EFM is simply that, externally created, so any third party could create a EFM/PFM model.

 

So for example most every 3rd Party model should be EFM (I dont know if ED offers the purchase of an ED created FM?), but the level of that EFM is defined by the other terms, such as AFM, PFM, SFM, etc...

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PFM is ED's internal aerodynamics/systems software. It tends to be different for every aircraft.

 

The EFM is really an interface that allows the 3rd parties to tie their own physics engine (aerodynamics and systems) into the game. In other words, the aerodynamics and systems (like hydraulics and fligtht control systems, engines) created by ED = PFM, if created by 3rd party = EFM.

 

EFM can be as high or as low quality as the 3rd party wishes it to be.

 

SFM/AFM/PFM SSM/ASM are ED marketing terms, so they don't apply to EFM.

 

If the tools to integrate flight models are the same, I do not understand why an EFM classification is made, would not it be logical to say that ED unknown level flight models until the external community to judge?

 

 

With all due respect to the work of ED, of course


Edited by GGTharos

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While initially I was also a bit confused about the terminology I have started in time to get used to it... and when I saw that games like ARMA or so evolved their flight model to AFM then I clearly understood the reason behind PFM/EFM.

 

And as VEAO and AVIODEV are already using a combination of those two "EFM up to PFM"... I think everything is pretty clear and straightforward. No lies, no marketing, no deception... just plain truth. One single thing requested from us: to be aware about terminology.

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ED and BST might use their FM for professional simulations as the movies on youtube with EDGE suggests. Hence the Professional in the name.

 

My 2 cents.


Edited by zaelu
changed one letter :)

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lets not muddy the waters (again)...

 

The below is provided to explain the various fidelity levels of flight dynamics and cockpit systems modeling available in our various DCS aircraft simulation products. We provide this to you to help better understand what your are purchasing:

 

Standard Flight Model (SFM). This has not changed and defines a more data-driven means of achieving flight dynamics, in conjunction with some scripting. SFM was used in the Lock On series and is still used in the Flaming Cliffs 3 Su-33 and MiG-29. However, we do plan to update these at a later time.

Advanced Flight Model (AFM) and AFM+. An AFM uses multiple points of force application and calculation on the relevant flight surfaces. This simulates edge of envelope conditions well and avoids scripted behaviors as used in an SFM. This system also partially implements the aircraft's flight augmentation systems. DCS aircraft that use AFM includes the Su-25T. A further evolution of the AFM is what we term the AFM+ and this uses the same calculations as AFM but adds limited modeling of the hydraulic and fuel systems. Examples of AFM+ in DCS include the Su-25 and A-10A.

Professional Flight Model (PFM). This is generations beyond an AFM/AFM+ and is based upon:

 

• Use a wider array of wind tunnel tests CFD methods for aerodynamics parameters calculations.

• A higher level of aircraft construction details for forces calculations. For example: our landing gear model includes individual kinematics of retracting/extending is used to calculate its movement, servo-piston forces, etc. In such cases, we truly use real lengths, arms, etc. This also includes such items as a realistic simulation of airflow along the airframe due to the propeller or helicopter rotor thrust.

• Realistic simulation of Flight Control, CAS and Autopilot systems.

• Realistic simulation of Hydraulics, Fuel, Electrical, Engine and other systems influence flight characteristics.

• Unprecedented access to test data packs.

 

This is combined with much more detailed and accurate accounting of the physical forces on the aircraft and airfoils. DCS examples of the PFM include the A-10C, Ka-50, P-51D, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, F-15C and Su-27 (in development) for DCS Flaming Cliffs, and the Fw190-D9 (in development).

 

External Flight Model (EFM). Used by our partner developers, the EFM uses only a part of PFM - rigid body physics and contact model. What forces and moments are applied to this rigid body from aerodynamics and any other sources except the contact forces is up to EFM developer.

 

Standard Systems Modeling (SSM). A DCS module using SSM is characterized as including just the most essential cockpit systems and using keyboard and joystick commands only to interact with the cockpit. Examples of SSM in DCS include all of the Flaming Cliffs 3 aircraft.

Advanced Systems Modeling (ASM). An ASM enabled aircraft goes into great depth to model the intricacies of the various cockpit systems, to include functionality for almost all the buttons, switches, dials, etc. A key element of an ASM cockpit is the ability to interact with it using your mouse. ASM DCS examples include the A-10C, Ka-50, P-51D, UH-1H and Mi-8MTV2.

 

 

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The waters aren't muddy at all, as long as you remember this.

 

SFM/AFM/PFM SSM/ASM are ED marketing terms...

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Hi,

 

SFM = Standard Flight Model. This is the basic flight model of DCS.

 

AFM/PFM/etc.. = Advanced Flight Model. This is where DCS beats the competition.

 

We are releasing with SFM first, but then we will release the AFM later when it is ready. You will be able to buy the AFM version, and get the SFM version in the interim period so you can fly when the SFM version is ready.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

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