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Landing in the Bf 109K-4


fjacobsen

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S!

 

ManOWar, I followed the speeds indicated in the manual, as stated in my post. Also dug up the book of Finnish flight tests on the 109G-2/6. There it was indicated that the trim wheel setting used in landing was 3..5, depending on fuel, speed etc. So quite a difference from DCS with 1-1.5 with same settings. There was also mention of the CoG relative to MAC. Allowable was 17-30%, but the normal CoG was 19-25% depending on loadout.

 

Also about the tail heaviness in tests. Test pilot described the force needed to lift the tail during take-off was "moderate compared to other planes" while force required for lift off was light. Also due this tail heavy feature 109G did not show any tendency to nose over even on hard braking, tail stayed on the ground.

 

Just testing stuff. I am not sure if test results of G-version applies to K-version straightforward though.

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Bear in mind a Bf109G-2 is a way different aircraft, way lighter, different weight and balance, different power, different torque effects due to that power and different propeller, different Wings with those big wheels bulges… I don't think G-2 can be compared in that matter with a K4 at all.

 

You're instructions say clearly, "trim +3 or as required/desired", so that's it.

 

 

Plane sits on 3 points at 145-155km/h
I don't think either that applies exactly to K4, it sits on ground at a higher speed due to all the above mentioned.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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S!

 

Tried landing per the instructions written for Finnish Bf109G-2/6 pilots. Worked fine except the trim needed to be considerably less than in the manual or the nose would try to skyrocket up. Instruction in short were: Slow to 300km/h and lower landing gear, lock tail wheel, open radiators(in cold weather later), drop flaps to 40deg(full down), counter nose down with trim 3 nose up or as desired. Keep speed at 200-210km/h during glide slope, 180km/h at threshold. Pull throttle back and gently flare. Plane sits on 3 points at 145-155km/h. During roll out keep direction with rudder, use brakes when speed drops. Keep stick pulled back. Plane has no tendency to nose over even on hard braking.

 

So works in game too except had to keep trim at around 1-1.5. Otherwise had to really push stick forward to keep glideslope. With less trim the plane went very nicely and lands easily on 3 points.

 

G maby, but we have K-4 trim may changed a bit.

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  • 8 months later...

Hi ,

 

 

 

For landing I would prefer a side slip ever! So the aircraft ist slow,in a perfect stable flight condition and you have a good view to the landing field. And ... there is no "bouncing" because of the low speed of the aircraft.

 

Important is only the timing in order to neutralize the rudder and flare the 109 (maybe 10 or 5 meters above the ground- tribute to the sinkrate). Just wait until she is ready.

 

 

 

How to:

- Gear down - Flaps full

- point to the airfield in 500 meters (more or less) and hold your altitude (don`t sink)

 

- When the nose is "touching" the runway start your slip

- Slip: Rudder left and Stick right and hold (or rudder right and stick left - what you like)

 

- lift the nose or lower in order to establish the perfect glide speed which should be arround 200 km/h (indicated)

- correct with small inputs by rudder and stick the direction of your glidepath (you should see your landing point through the small side window)

(under perfect conditions and approach you don`t need any corrections - just hold the slip and enjoy the glide)

- 10 or 5 meters before touch down neutralize the rudder , lift the nose but don`t climb and whait untill the aircraft touch the runway. Wait!! Don`t force it!!!!!

- After touchdown pull the stick and touch the brakes - kind of balancing in DCS

 

 

It´s very easy to learn. Normally you need 3 or 5 approaches to perfect your landing. And thats it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers


Edited by TOMCATZ
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  • 6 months later...

I've came back to the 109 after a long time, mainly spending time in the Spit (as well as the jets)

 

I used to think the Spit was the hardest of the warbirds to land (& takeoff) satisfactorily, but rapidly changing my mind. The 109 is a bit of a beast, I'm unsure if its changed or it's just me.

 

I can get it down crossing the threshold usually with a little power applied at around 200kph levelling out and keeping the nose level or slightly high as the speed decays and let the aircraft settle at around 160-150, pulling the stick back after the gear touches down. I've used this approach with and without (a little) throttle applied, dead straight and everything lined up. It touches down gently and all seems to be going well

 

However when I pull the stick back I nearly always get a severe swing usually to the right, which I don't understand. I gently touchdown, I'm straight and no change in power so why does the aircraft develop this swing?

 

In general it feels to me like the friction of tyres to runway has been reduced since I last visited the module. Despite the locked tailwheel the 109 is every bit as twitchy as the Spitfire I reckon, despite the Spit having it's tailwheel semi free (the Spit has a lock of sorts as I understand, that keeps the tailwheel straight unless a distinct turning moment is applied to force it to castor).

 

I looked back on some older video I have of landings and noticed previously that once lined up and after touchdown, no rudder changes applied, providing the touchdown was straight and gentle and no power changes it tracked straight with little to no directional change. Not any more though!!!

 

Any insight or how to stop it appreciated

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 On the contrary, I may say.. try with lower speeds on touchdown.. 200kph is pretty high, especially if the plane is light, as you'll bounce if you pull the stick especially if you have it trimmed nose up. It develops that swing because it wants to be airborne again, so you can touchdown @ 180kph, and don't be afraid to step on the breaks hard until the speed drops around 120kph, then ease on the breaks as it will tend to stick its nose in the dirt.

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@amazingme approach speed is 200 on the threshold, touchdown is typically 160-150kph. I've tried various trims between 0 to -2 and IMHO apart from stick position, it doesn't appear to me to make a great deal of difference. Usually I try it with 50% fuel loadout and no extra stores

 

Both you and @razo+r are suggesting a slightly higher approach and possibly touchdown speed at 180 than I'm using so I'll try that

 

I also noticed that I was using an old gash mission, I made a new one for doing circuits and it seems to be an improvement, don't ask me how but I've noticed this before with other modules that old missions seem somehow to affect the flight model. I now seem to have more rudder control on touchdown and although still seeing the swing, its a lot easier to counter with a boot full of rudder.

 

Thanks the suggestions are appreciated

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Nah, the only way the mission file can affect flight model is through changes in airfield elevation and weather conditions (both altering density altitude).

 

Reduction of tailwheel friction razo+r mentioned above made the 109 landings more tricky indeed. Lining up perfectly for touchdown is much more crucial now. Keep in mind the slip ball isn't all that quick and precise - record a few landings and see for yourself in F4 replay cam that touchdowns, which seemed perfectly straight from cockpit (keyword "seemed", because you can't really see anything over the nose), might often actually be a bit skewed left or right when seen from external cam. This is when 109 loves to pull to the side when the main tyres bite.

 

One more thing, maybe your nose yaws a little if you cut the throttle just before touchdown? It's more noticeable in 109 compared to other DCS warbirds. I would recommend backing off the throttle more smoothly then.


Edited by Art-J
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  • 6 months later...
  • 1 year later...
1 hour ago, 5urvivalis7 said:

I swear Ive lived this exact scenario over and over in the BF109

 

Look like guy kept power on.

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  • 8 months later...
On 12/3/2014 at 8:48 PM, fjacobsen said:

Can someone please enlighten me how to land the BF-109 without tilting left or right.

 

Approach and touchdown goes well.

But quickly during the rollout the aircraft suddently tilts left or right, dipping the wings into the ground.

 

Tailwheel is locked, Flaps fully down. Stick fully back once on the ground.

 

Track:

Bf109_Ldg.trk 205.88 kB · 527 downloads

 

 

FinnJ

 

Personalize  differential brakes keybinds. To keep it simple I have them binded as Z and X. After 3 point landing tap them as needed to avoid plane uncontrolably turning left or right until reaching  low speed. Simple as that. Good luck! Enjoy happy landings.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Qcumber said:

I can 3 point land OK now but I still end up spinning the plane through 90 degrees as I come to a stop. Any suggestions. 

Use brakes to asist straight landing rollout, it is very difficult to do it by rudder alone.

Landing at 2:00

https://youtu.be/VwroE6PMFhk


Edited by grafspee

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2 hours ago, Qcumber said:

I can 3 point land OK now but I still end up spinning the plane through 90 degrees as I come to a stop. Any suggestions. 

Make sure tail wheel is locked. Once firmly on ground you may pull back on the stick. Use wheel brakes to prevent spinning.

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2 hours ago, razo+r said:

Make sure tail wheel is locked. Once firmly on ground you may pull back on the stick. Use wheel brakes to prevent spinning.

Thanks Taxi+r. Tail wheel is locked. I get a smooth landing but just get a 90 (ish) degree spin when trying to stop. I can't work out what I am doing wrong. I have take of assistant set to "0" and rudder assistance unchecked. I have tried using both rudder and differential wheel breaks but no effect. I think I just more practice! 

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3 hours ago, grafspee said:

Use brakes to asist straight landing rollout, it is very difficult to do it by rudder alone.

I've tried using both rudder and breaks. It works OK apart from the final slow down. I always end up spinning. 

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Brakes should be sufficient to prevent that from happening, especially when rolling slow. Please post a short replay track showing the issue, with ctrl indicator on. It's difficult to advise if we don't see what's happening exactly.

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On 7/1/2023 at 10:42 PM, Qcumber said:

Thanks Taxi+r. Tail wheel is locked. I get a smooth landing but just get a 90 (ish) degree spin when trying to stop. I can't work out what I am doing wrong. I have take of assistant set to "0" and rudder assistance unchecked. I have tried using both rudder and differential wheel breaks but no effect. I think I just more practice! 

Always practising with the same mission and conditions, perhaps? Are there any wind you didn't notice? Landing with any tail wind is really bad on tail draggers. Those 90º, always veering into the same direction?

 

Without further details, but there's something weird about high performance tail draggers (well, low performance also have it's glitches) and that's about torque and something more. Something which happens indeed so many times and we pay little attention to is the wheels spinning also create gyroscopic precession, plus lateral movement of the propeller under some circumstances makes one of the wings to load more hence that side wheel grip stronger to the ground than the other one creating a swerve moment. It happens when you raise the tail while taking off, and might happen after landing while rolling out. The thing is, it's wildly counter intuitive because to counter it you have to push the control stick into the swerve since there's where you want to alleviate the differential higher wheel grip into the ground so pushing the stick that way lowers the pressure on that wheel.

Don't know about your exact problem without further details about the conditions where it happens, but that so happen and it's really annoying thing about tail draggers. Anyhow, it can be worse with crosswinds, and also less depending on where your crosswind comes from, so it's not even happening all the time, so the conditions of your landing need to be taken into account if you please to tell us.

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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Thanks everyone. I know what my issue was. The brake peddles were limited in the curves setting so I could not apply full pressure. I'm landing OK now, apart from the occasional stupid mistake. I just need more practice. Circuits and bumps.

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  • 7 months later...
2 minutes ago, adjudantloic said:

Come on guys, juste practice and practice and READ THE FLIGHT MANUAL!  :- ) Approach in normal condition 220km/h. Increase airspeed if strong &/or gusty wind. Good luck.

https://youtu.be/MStTeXn2kYs?si=iAz3JipBPIgo5XC_

https://youtu.be/ofAl82h3Heo?si=PbgC3IpqW8RHNdNc

 

7 months later, it's a piece of piss!! 

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