CVW-11 Intercept Geometry Presentation - Page 3 - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-28-2019, 05:41 AM   #21
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Just a peek into the cool things we have goin on!
Enjoy the presentation!
Excellent stuff ! Thank you.
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Old 10-28-2019, 01:04 PM   #22
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Question: The concepts demonstrated and taught in the intercept geometry video are being used against what appears to be a non-maneuvering target (ie, forming up on an aircraft in formation, a tanker), but what about a maneuvering target?

For instance, let's look at the low TA example. If his TA at 40 miles is less than 10 deg, you kick and build by going 50 ATA cold. Then you fly your gates...if at 30 miles he is 20-30 TA, then you turn to bandit reciprocal and fly it all the way at that heading until you get to 40 ATA hot in which case you turn to collision. But what if during that time, when you are flying bandit reciprocal, he changes heading or he continually puts his nose on you (TA=0)? Do you start the process all over again when you get to the next gate and re-evaluate?

Also, there used to be a tick mark on the contact in the radar when you go PDSTT. It is now gone and although other people have let ED know, they can't seem to reproduce it or do anything about it. So the only way to get TA is to look at your HUD and look at his nose position in the NIRD circle it seems. Is anyone else doing it a different way?



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Old 10-28-2019, 05:04 PM   #23
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I think this is only useful for a non-maneuvering target.



IIRC there's a Jetstream episode where the students run thru this type of intercept, fighting for their gates etc. (I cant remember if the gate numbers are the exact same, but i assume they are.) In that episode they referenced using this in NORAD intercepts of Bear bombers, or to intercept airliners.


I think if the bandit is putting his nose on you, then you're into a whole new set of tactics. I'd put my nose on him and close until I'm within fox3 range. at that point its whatever BVR tactics you want to use (f-pole maneuver etc).
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:26 AM   #24
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Not taking away from the effort to put it into video format, but can you guys acknowledge and credit the source of this, which is the P-825 course available at the CNATRA website?
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire View Post

Just a peek into the cool things we have goin on!
Enjoy the presentation!
Didn't watch the vid but recognize the slides, looks like the t-45 AWI pub from primary? I think it's great that you all are taking time to educate and spread knowledge. So much effort expended on studying systems, when the fun is the fight. Even then, DCS is a lot more fun as part of a section where everyone know's their responsibilities.

Slides kinda cut off at displacement turn, I assume you left brevity and naming of different groups & pictures, target priority, melding and sorting, how to tell if you're winning/losing and whether to merge or skate for lesson 2? Some of the default stuff would be good to include I think, like azimuth sort and range sort should be common knowledge.

One thing I've noticed when teaching basic intercept tactics is that even when people understand triangles, B-scope projections do not naturally produce an accurate understanding of the spacial relationships. Forgive my awful drawing, but I didn't want to post something that could violate the rule. I put the linked pic together to illustrate a few common ways it deceives people. Each is meant to show something, the second is drift when fighter heading = bandit recip. As you mentioned in your slide, this indicates that you will not intercept on current heading..

The fourth was to be a B-scope with associated intercept geometry explaining the terms, but then i noticed that you guys already threw one in from that pat pub that's much cleaner. As my ms paint atrocity is not legible that small, I did provide a zoomed in of that same pic. Hopefully it illistrates the point: https://imgur.com/cKmg2bK

I'll be curious what the response is. Not taking anything away, but this is just scratching the surface. Primary is skills training, no tactics. BVR is taught in FRS and no public documents for that. Its a great foundation though, and will put players light years ahead of where they currently are. There are some good mission type specific priorities, how they effecting sorting and melding, etc., but not really tactics. Still, the skills are progressive, have to mastter one before moving to next and such. No point discussing advantageous merge entry if you don't intercept correctly, and all if it has to be solid before you can communicate and fight as a team (which frankly should be the ultimate goal - there's nothing more fun in DCS). Interfect fundamentals, good comms, good BFM - All of ita culminates in lead/wing relationship, and the lead/support roles.

Are you planning to do a more of these? Often in response to somebody asking we talked about various ways to teach these concepts and tactics but its always a question of time. Perhaps getting together with a campaign builder and having the lessons and checkrides (the skillchecks are in the course material), but it always comes down to time... or lack of it. PP slides and such are great, but there's no substitute for time in the seat. You can learn geometry from a textbook, but not flying jets.

Anyway- I am glad to you guys are putting in the work, and look forward to seeing the response.


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I think if the bandit is putting his nose on you, then you're into a whole new set of tactics. I'd put my nose on him and close until I'm within fox3 range. at that point its whatever BVR tactics you want to use (f-pole maneuver etc).
Not taught in this course unfortunately. Also, f-pole is a thing, specifically a distance, not a tactic (I know its used to describe a maneuver of sorts here). fwiw the DCS 1v1 head on from 30 miles is not a common real world engagement. Usually friends are are involved, and at least one side has another job to do.
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch625 View Post
I think this is only useful for a non-maneuvering target.



IIRC there's a Jetstream episode where the students run thru this type of intercept, fighting for their gates etc. (I cant remember if the gate numbers are the exact same, but i assume they are.) In that episode they referenced using this in NORAD intercepts of Bear bombers, or to intercept airliners.


I think if the bandit is putting his nose on you, then you're into a whole new set of tactics. I'd put my nose on him and close until I'm within fox3 range. at that point its whatever BVR tactics you want to use (f-pole maneuver etc).
Answer from collegue (former F-16 pilot) : this is useful in case 2vs1 intercept. The covering aircraft may take a position to intercept the adversary from behind. The principle of the stern conversion is exactly the same, the problem become the precise moment to turn toward the target.

Cheers,
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:45 PM   #27
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I would like to see the YouTube video in better resolution. It just isn't clear enough in the video of the intercept examples to see things like what is on the radar and HUD and the bandit itself.


Apparently this video is meant for non-maneuvering targets. However at the end of the video they do an intercept v. hostile bandits that have fired on you. So doesn't this lesson imply that it is to be used against maneuvering targets? And if so, then I pose my question again. What do you do if the bandit maneuvers...reset and start again looking for the next gate to make sure you get the TA such that you have 40000 ft of LS?


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Old 10-29-2019, 04:56 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by sk000tch View Post
Also, f-pole is a thing, specifically a distance, not a tactic (I know its used to describe a maneuver of sorts here)

Haha... i knew as soon as i wrote it, that someone would point that out. I was trying to use the forum colloquial term, but as you point out thats an inaccurate and possibly misleading term.



Also, i breifly checked out the P-825... wow! A tone of awesome info! As mentioned they have an entire timeline sequence for intercept along with info on when to employ etc... I gota get reading!
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by vctpil View Post
Answer from collegue (former F-16 pilot) : this is useful in case 2vs1 intercept. The covering aircraft may take a position to intercept the adversary from behind. The principle of the stern conversion is exactly the same, the problem become the precise moment to turn toward the target.

Cheers,
Wait what is now? I missed something.

I like when people cite things their fighter pilot friends said


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Old 10-29-2019, 06:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Switch625 View Post
Haha... i knew as soon as i wrote it, that someone would point that out. I was trying to use the forum colloquial term, but as you point out thats an inaccurate and possibly misleading term.



Also, i breifly checked out the P-825... wow! A tone of awesome info! As mentioned they have an entire timeline sequence for intercept along with info on when to employ etc... I gota get reading!
btw no worries, I was just playing with ya. That's why i referenced how its used here. It is the equivalent of an American Football play called "I can throw ball 55 yards" though.

The f-16 should/will display f and A poles on its dynamic launch in hud and helmet. Not sure how much we will get, but we should get a series of data cycling through F-pole, A-pole, loft angle at current range, the degrees bogie would be required to turn angle off to defeat the missile at current range (once within Raero)...

Also, those primary manuals are good sources of info but again, they are skills training. Not tactics. Those numbers are not accurate, both because DCS 120s perform differently than the Navy thinks they do, and because the T-17 isn't an F-18. The VMTS (i think that's right), is modelled on the apg-73 though, which is pretty good teaching aid. Formation and brevity is good, advanced BFM, CAS and strike as well, SEM is very good too but too much without some help especially at first. Enjoy reading
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Last edited by sk000tch; 10-29-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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