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Old 12-26-2018, 06:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Worrazen View Post
I think some are making DCS VR sound much bigger than it is, the VR Hardware resultion cannot even compare with a 1440p let alone 4K monitor.

VR hardware is still too young to be of valid comparison to the monitors yet, ofcourse things will change and I am not against VR optimizations, but this makes people think VR is already here and equal and this is creating too high expectations for newcomers, I hope this is notified the readme's and docs, I haven't looked yet.

It's like Early Access, I think VR in DCS should be designated as such as well, one is the hardware it self which isn't ED's job, and the other are optimizations, which we're getting and is being done already so it's kinda not valid to bother more, check the newsletters.

Even with those optimizations, the VR hardware is still a large piece of the puzzle.

Even with the VR hardware then you need 4-6x the beef in your PC than you have now.

It will take years when VR is mature, I don't mind excitement, but if it's overkill it's going to make many people disappointed, especially some real-world pilots who never were into games, they don't know the state and the history of PC hardware, they think they'll jump into a futuristic fighter, only to be surprised by some minecraft block pixels, well at least according to CW Lemoine's VR flight he said he could hardly read any cockpit text at all.
Have you tried VR?, frankly going back to 2D is a very big step down from the VR experience. It`s like going from the modern games i.e. Battlefield, to the old side scrolling games/shooters. As far as resolution, it becomes less of an issue as you assimilate to being in the world instead of looking through a small window, and perfectly good enough to operate efficiently within the cockpit environment. Next year will see the next gen HMD`s. 2D gaming for sims is the past and VR is here to stay, it`s not even a fair comparison.

Last edited by Zoomer; 12-26-2018 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 07:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Zoomer View Post
Have you tried VR?, frankly going back to 2D is a very big step down from the VR experience. It`s like going from the modern games i.e. Battlefield, to the old side scrolling games/shooters. As far as resolution, it becomes less of an issue as you assimilate to being in the world instead of looking through a small window, and perfectly good enough to operate efficiently within the cockpit environment. Next year will see the next gen HMD`s. 2D gaming for sims is the past and VR is here to stay, it`s not even a fair comparison.

I most likely have the other arguments, having things strapped to my head, it's simply something I will have being really picky with clothes to begin with, I can find all kinds of details very annoying with a lot of them, etc.


I imagine VR runs to be in sessions for myself, only when in that mode, I wouldn't use VR for anything else like desktop, etc.


It'll be like gearing up for a ski-run on top of a 3000 meter mountain, it's realism, but I would never do any kind of SWITCH and completely replace it. I really don't like to have a ton of clothes on myself in the house in the colder winter times when central heating can't keep up sometimes and parts of the house much coler, and to have to be in a ski-suit all day long, I can hardly imagine it right now.


Wheel's or steering wheels are still wheels, you can't go more circular than that, what are you going to replace them with, magnets and gloves? It's not a natural improvement, it's not natural evolution, it's a different type of movement/interface and it's not interchangible, so magnets instead of wheels would have something less and wouldn't do what wheels can, and I hope DCS recognizes and treats VR and monitor equally for peaceful coexistence in future.
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Last edited by Worrazen; 12-26-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 07:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worrazen View Post
I most likely have the other arguments, having things strapped to my head, it's simply something I will have being really picky with clothes to begin with, I can find all kinds of details very annoying with a lot of them, etc.


I imagine VR runs to be in sessions for myself, only when in that mode, I wouldn't use VR for anything else like desktop, etc.


It'll be like gearing up for a ski-run on top of a 3000 meter mountain, it's realism, but I would never do any kind of SWITCH and completely replace it. I really don't like to have a ton of clothes on myself in the cold winter times (when central heating can't keep up sometimes and parts of the house much coler), and to have to be in a ski-suit all day long, I can hardly imagine it right now.


Wheel's or steering wheels are still wheels, you can't go more circular than that, what are you going to replace them with, magnets and gloves? It's not a natural improvement, it's not natural evolution, it's a different type of movement/interface and it's not interchangible, and I hope DCS recognizes and treats them equally for peaceful coexistence for future.

Haptic feedback gloves that give you the sensation of holding something *IS* far off. I still prefer physical switches and HOTAS. But it all works fine in VR.



The ski outfit comment, I don't even get. I'm guessing that you're saying realism and immersion are not that high on your list of priorities. If that is the case, then VR is absolutely not right for you. But I'm sure it'll coexist for another 5 years. There's also a chance that VR will never become mainstream. High probability in its current trajectory. But like Thurstmaster, Virpil/VKB's, and MFG's of the world, I hope companies will continue to make flight-sim capable VR gear. One can only hope.
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Old 12-26-2018, 07:26 PM   #24
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everyone comments on VR without even trying it first.

Maybe Worrazen should spend more time browsing the clothes in the underwear department instead.
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Old 12-26-2018, 07:48 PM   #25
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I simply can not fly without VR anymore. I have attempted in other sims I shall not name, and it's just not "there" for me. Sure, there's pretty pictures when using a monitor. But as has been previously stated, there's a big difference; looking at the sim, or being in the sim, and VR puts you in the sim. There is no "tilt your head this way" or click a button to look directly behind you. You're going to twist, stretch, move, hold yourself up from your seat a bit as you try to see what's back there. As far as putting the HMD on, if you can put a hat on your noggin, you can put a VR HMD on. It doesn't matter how you look in it, nobody is looking.
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worrazen View Post
I most likely have the other arguments, having things strapped to my head, it's simply something I will have being really picky with clothes to begin with, I can find all kinds of details very annoying with a lot of them, etc.


I imagine VR runs to be in sessions for myself, only when in that mode, I wouldn't use VR for anything else like desktop, etc.


It'll be like gearing up for a ski-run on top of a 3000 meter mountain, it's realism, but I would never do any kind of SWITCH and completely replace it. I really don't like to have a ton of clothes on myself in the cold winter times (when central heating can't keep up sometimes and parts of the house much coler), and to have to be in a ski-suit all day long, I can hardly imagine it right now.


Wheel's or steering wheels are still wheels, you can't go more circular than that, what are you going to replace them with, magnets and gloves? It's not a natural improvement, it's not natural evolution, it's a different type of movement/interface and it's not interchangible, so magnets instead of wheels would have something less and wouldn't do what wheels can, and I hope DCS recognizes and treats VR and monitor equally for peaceful coexistence in future.
It seems you haven`t tried VR to date. So your argument is based on a lack of experience of same, which never makes for a good basis for any proposition. My advice is don`t knock it until you`ve tried it, otherwise no one would experience anything outside their comfort zone. As for steering wheels, force feedback on a Logitech wheel while you are in VR is something I`m sure you would enjoy. My advice is try a VR demo in some tech shop/show and then make an informed assessment of same. You may just surprise yourself. Actually many sim racers have better lap times in VR due to better distance judgement of apex`s and braking points etc.

Last edited by Zoomer; 12-26-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:54 PM   #27
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It seems you haven`t tried VR to date. So your argument is based on a lack of experience of same, which never makes for a good basis for any proposition. My advice is don`t knock it until you`ve tried it, otherwise no one would experience anything outside their comfort zone. As for steering wheels, force feedback on a Logitech wheel while you are in VR is something I`m sure you would enjoy. My advice is try a VR demo in some tech shop/show and then make an informed assessment of same. You may just surprise yourself. Actually many sim racers have better lap times in VR due to better distance judgement of apex`s and braking points etc.

I am being extremely on the critical side of my opinions, I probably will eventually like it, just not right now.

I would also need a freaking proper chair, desk and probably a whole new room, with a totally new setup.


Real practical experience probably not, but when you do work with programming and follow the tech in-depth it's probably a lot more than an average gamer would imagine.

I have infact followed all the VR stuff (including AMD Mantle/Vulkan API) to the bone way back from the very beginning even before any kind of media circus, when John Carmack was still working at id Software, posting on MTBS3D forums and experimenting with his DIY HMD on DOOM3 BFG which was going to make it into the game eventually but got canceled by Zenimax at the time as a "worthless side project" or something, I guess JC contract wasn't strong enough, he was able to work on side projects 10% of the time I think (including a ton of other benefits (like speaking freely bypassing a lot of PR policies) other employees probably didn't get, he was afaik only and sole owner when he sold id Software to Zenimax) but not a guarantee that stuff would make it in IMO, basically they didn't want him doing anything with VR whatsoever.


The VR stuff has unfortunately swayed John Carmack away from the other KEY ingredient, Vulkan API, he was historically the guy criticizing the horrible state of PCs were in terms of efficiency vs consoles (btw for example lots if not most of Id Software games use OpenGL not DirectX), always talking how he wished he would be able to "program to the metal" on the PC, but when the AMD Mantle API began, and when that got evolved to Vulkan API, he was MIA, not a beep from him, and he infact changed his opinions for 180 degrees so he was not really interested in having another API, that was kinda weird, meh, he could have put so many good ideas in, well the expandability of Vulkan API and the openness still hopefully make this all possible, good news is that already some extensions authored by commuinity or specific GPU manufacturers have been promoted to the core/mainline Vulkan API spec.
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Last edited by Worrazen; 12-26-2018 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 09:07 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Worrazen View Post
I am being extremely on the critical side of my opinions, I probably will eventually like it, just not right now.

I would also need a freaking proper chair, desk and probably a whole new room, with a totally new setup.


Real practical experience probably not, but when you do work with programming and follow the tech in-depth it's probably a lot more than an average gamer would imagine.

I have infact followed all the VR stuff to the bone way back from the very beginning even before any kind of media circus, when John Carmack was still working at id Software, posting on MTBS3D forums and experimenting with his DIY HMD on DOOM3 BFG which was going to make it into the game eventually but got canceled by Zenimax at the time as a "worthless side project" or something, JC contract wasn't strong enough, he was able to work on side projects 10% of the time I think (he discolsed in some interview) but not a guarantee that stuff would make it in.
Nope, nothing fancy needed, you won`t see it you`ll be in a virtual cockpit. You could sit on a cardboard box if you were a lightweight. The most important thing is your pc, a good cpu & gpu. The sensors can sit on your desk in front of you. If you already have a pc powerful enough, then you have already made the lion`s share of the investment.There are plenty of good deals on the rift or other HMD`s. Likely used versions will appear when the new tech arrives. If you have to upgrade your pc, then the process can become expensive.

Last edited by Zoomer; 12-26-2018 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 12-26-2018, 10:01 PM   #29
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It seems from a few comments that some believe that people don't prefer vr only because they haven't tried it.

I have the vive, rift, and odyssey. I still much prefer playing on my 4k 55" (low latency) TV with trackir.

The clarity in 2d 4k resolution overcomes the immersion in vr. And the fact that the clarity is lacking in vr (with the above named headsets) directly affects the quality of the immersion.

I'm looking forward though to trying a pimax 5k+ when I can get my hands on one.



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Old 12-26-2018, 10:27 PM   #30
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I currently have Vive, Vive Pro and Rift and mostly play on my 34 inch monitor main + 29 inch for MFD/helios. Having used to playing games at much higher frame rate, it's mostly the FPS that turns me off despite having recently built a high end PC system. The experience is fairly good with the Vive Pro and I don't mind the relatively crappy resolution/SDE but it still lacks sense of speed due to low FPS which is also severely gimped when joining MP server, VR Zoom is also bad with distorted image, blurry off center images when glancing is another turnoff, as well as inability to see keyboard/mouse/MFDs/button boxes/the surroundings, etc.

To be fair, TrackIR also has its own issues, and VR setup is ultimately cheaper and easier compared to simpit. But at the end of the day, I still find DCS more enjoyable without VR.
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