Questions about MiG-21 FM after todays update.

spin behavior is much improved (a lot more inertia so its not so obviously wrong anymore) but i am curious about whether the fishbed irl was so predisposed to automatically recover itself without any inputs. granted, it is a bit of a lawndart and it does hail from before relaxed stability.

Not the bug.

 

Check your roll/pitch curves, try setting them according the manual.

 

MiG-21 have documented max. roiling speed of ~420 deg/sec. This patch actually fixes the slow roll and inertia MiG had before.

Thank you. I'm glad it will no longer feel like grandpa's Buick.:thumbup:

MiG-21Bis, this ain't your pappy's Buick :D

Mate I am tired thats why!

Doesn't matter: being tired is irrelevant.

Put yourself in the shoes of a flight model developer for one second. Pretend you have coded the whole flight model by yourself and you know it inside out. Can you picture this? I'm sure you can.

Now imagine me coming to you and telling you that "FM is broken, fix it. It's horrible and unrealistic." As a developer, I am sure that you have the best intentions in the world and want your module to be as accurate as possible. Your thought process to approach this situation will very likely going to be something like this:

• What aspects of the FM does he think is broken?
  
• Is that feedback credible?
  
• What is he basing himself on to know that X or Y aspect of the FM is broken?
  
• What data is he using as a reference?
  
• Does this data contradict the data I already have?
  
• Does he have any experience with the real aircraft?
  
• How am I going to fix anything if he can't tell me what exactly is wrong?
  

The chances are that, with feedback that is vague and unsubstanciated, you cannot answer a single one of these questions. Therefore, the only viable options are either to ask for more information, or to disregard that feedback since you don't have anything you can work with.

Thank you. I'm glad it will no longer feel like grandpa's Buick.:thumbup:

I'm kinda digging the update too! :thumbup:

Doesn't matter: being tired is irrelevant.

Yes it does. I was supposed to posses a released version months ago.

Put yourself in the shoes of a flight model developer for one second. Pretend you have coded the whole flight model by yourself and you know it inside out. Can you picture this? I'm sure you can.

No I won't. I am a customer. I was patient for a long time. I was supportive for a long time, I was expecting better and delivered less, I am a customer and an unhappy one.

The data I am using is that the feel of the only DCS AC I was enjoying flying is gone in on wrong patch. I don't need to waste more time proving anything. I made my point. The FM looks fake enough for ME to stop enjoying the product. The last FM was more proper for ME felt proper, my only issue was low AoA achievable. I really don't feel I need anybody to patronize me, I know how things work just don't wanna follow.

My opinion is that soon if this update go to public more people will notice how wrong update this was. Maybe I am right maybe I am wrong, still if I think this doesn't suite me, I have the right to comment to that, feel disappointment and angry.

If I'm not mistaken, Dolphin flies the MiG-21 IRL. So I'm pretty inclined to take his word for it when he says the module is behaving realistically. Even if it felt totally wrong to us desk pilots, if thats how it is in real life, what complaint could there be? Do we not want the most realistic simulation possible? Or one that feels right to us?

If I'm not mistaken, Dolphin flies the MiG-21 IRL. So I'm pretty inclined to take his word for it when he says the module is behaving realistically. Even if it felt totally wrong to us desk pilots, if thats how it is in real life, what complaint could there be? Do we not want the most realistic simulation possible? Or one that feels right to us?

I am not questioning Dolphin and I have respect for the guys, but this is wrong 100% to my eyes. Horrible wrong.

I´m feeling your feelings about how the Mig-21 feels are wrong.

But this is only my feeling about how do you feel, feeling the Mig-21.

If I'm not mistaken, Dolphin flies the MiG-21 IRL. So I'm pretty inclined to take his word for it when he says the module is behaving realistically. Even if it felt totally wrong to us desk pilots, if thats how it is in real life, what complaint could there be? Do we not want the most realistic simulation possible? Or one that feels right to us?

AMEN to that .... feels more real to me, with little wings one would expect it to have a hi roll rate :thumbup:

I am glad you enjoy it. I can't. If they introduced this FM from the beginning I would not have purchased the module.

Well, You'll have to stop flying it then, 'cause apart from possible small tweaks, I don't see it coming back to anything close to previous iteration, which was quite far from documented numbers in many aspects.

For me, it's the opposite, I did put the plane in hangar for a few months (because of various long-standing systems and FM issues), the yesterday's patch makes it playable again.

Back on topic - the new FM seems to be getting a bit crazy in long, flat spins - with rotation speed getting unnaturally fast, making the plane unrecoverable. More testing will be necessary. But then, in usual offline/online combat scenarios we don't get into these anyway. Fast aileron response will require getting used to, though I don't know what to think about very low inertia when stopping the roll.

Nevertheless, very welcomed and long-awaited changes, I'm excited to get these into 1.5.6. stable and 2.0.5 as well.

The latest update changed power / drag is what i noticed. The roll i am not too sure but she rolls very fast now that could be the stick i don't know

 

Back on topic - the new FM seems to be getting a bit crazy in long, flat spins - with rotation speed getting unnaturally fast, making the plane unrecoverable. More testing will be necessary. But then, in usual offline/online combat scenarios we don't get into these anyway. Fast aileron response will require getting used to, though I don't know what to think about very low inertia when stopping the roll.

 

Nevertheless, very welcomed and long-awaited changes, I'm excited to get these into 1.5.6. stable and 2.0.5 as well.

You mean no inertia when stopping the roll, plus have you tried to use the rudder at all? Or watch how the aircraft behaves on that axis. Try maneuvering at low speed using rudder, I recall Dolphin talking about the rudder being responsible for rolling the aircraft at low speed as the ailerons are inefficient at low speed and high AoA maneuvers. Please go check it out.

I like how the Mig-21 flies now, much better than before. Just a feeling, I'm no FM expert :D.

Like this ? https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3097735&postcount=2736

If you thing I am bushing over M3 cause I like it your are wrong. Mig 21 is the only thing I am interested in DCS atm and it feels wrong.

One more thing go M0,7 and use fool rudder L or R try to keep it level...some things are so wrong.

Please provide us a track or a tacview so we can understand what you are talking about.

I agree with the statements on the previous page, it's pretty amazing how much has improved in such a short timespan, and this is just the first patch! Great work guys.

I believe Habit is referring to the yaw/roll coupling. Currently, sideslip produces a very weak rolling moment in the direction of the sideslip.

I hate saying this but it really "feels" like there should be more roll when using rudder at high AoA.

At lower speed (I tried around 500 kph IAS at 2000 meters altitude) a vigourous rudder deflection, without AFCS stabilization and without aileron input, produces a relatively rapid roll with sideslip and a marked decrease in speed and a consequent increase in aoa.

With AFCS stabilization the roll is much less rapid.

As far as I know this behaviour seems to be consistent with the info reported in the stability and controllability chapter of the pilot's flight operating instructions.

I also tried the maneuver at mach 0.7 with initial neutral aileron, full rudder, with subsequent ailerons input to balance the roll induced by rudder deflection. Full rudder deflection-induced roll is countered by aileron opposite input but undamped oscillations in pitch occurr.

No I won't. I am a customer. I was patient for a long time. I was supportive for a long time, I was expecting better and delivered less, I am a customer and an unhappy one.

 

The data I am using is that the feel of the only DCS AC I was enjoying flying is gone in on wrong patch. I don't need to waste more time proving anything. I made my point.

You don't want to picture how real engineering works? Well, you're being willfully unreasonable. You haven't proven anything. Not a single bloody thing. That's the beauty of a forum: you are free to express your opinion on things, and I'm also free to assess whether you're talking out of your arse or not. Evidence seems to point to the former rather than the latter.

Being a customer does not entitle you to drive design decisions of a flight sim product. If the FM changes makes your experience in the MiG-21 unbearable for some obscure reason, you can revert back to the previous patch and never look back.

Thanks for the patch. I had no chance to try Consultancies. But the first impression very good compared with previous a lengthy ordeal with the module ...

The Mig-21 so far, I just flew. I noticed that the module is more controllable. Roll really works at takeoff speed as the Real. Roll is now highly sensitive but one of the reasons is the suggestion from a previous version of the fighter when he was still clumsy and fell into the stall. Set the sensitivity of their own. From there you have set the curves. Module has a greater acceleration when switching on afterburner. Even at a 30 ° pitch slowly loses speed and heading straight into the sky. Overall, I think the airplane is now a very agile and quick compared to the previous version when you were not able to rewind at a dogfight fighter F-5 Tiger. I also noticed the SPO - 10 is more sensitive and responsive to a distance of enemy radar. Please about modifying the flight dynamics braking parachute. Fired the braking parachute just before touching the path. The chassis is bent even if the landing is smooth.

Thanks for the patch. So is he.

Please about modifying the flight dynamics braking parachute. Fired the braking parachute just before touching the path. The chassis is bent even if the landing is smooth.

This is valuable information - please submit the bug report to our Mantis.

Thank you.

You don't want to picture how real engineering works? Well, you're being willfully unreasonable. You haven't proven anything. Not a single bloody thing. That's the beauty of a forum: you are free to express your opinion on things, and I'm also free to assess whether you're talking of your arse or not. Evidence seems to point to the latter rather than the former.

 

Being a customer does not entitle you to drive design decisions of a flight sim product. If the FM changes makes your experience in the MiG-21 unbearable for some obscure reason, you can revert back to the previous patch and never look back.

You are not someone I have to answer to.

This is valuable information - please submit the bug report to our Mantis.

 

Thank you.

Dolphin can u help me understand better the SAU Stabilize system. Currently flying with stabilizer on helps me control the aircraft a lot more efficient.

Dolphin can u help me understand better the SAU Stabilize system.

In short, "stabilization" increases stability for pitch and bank by filtering pilots stick inputs through SAU (thus partially controlling input - through increased stick forces - and output). It will also help maintaining either the course, bank or pitch, depending on few things... The topic is quite broad for the thread.

Pilot sense this SAU mode as more-or-less decreased aircraft agility, and most pilots don't use it in order to get maximum response and control over the aircraft. However, it's useful in precision flying to make aircraft more stable, help maintaining certain attitude, and to damper osculations that can occur for any reason.

This is the shortest I could make it at the moment.