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Dogfight tips?


Saskuatch

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On 9/12/2021 at 9:46 AM, Sideburns said:

 

Also the MiG21 low speed flight model atm for human players is quite generous and has been for some time.

 

Anyway, tips for the F5 (apologies for overlap with existing tips but would like to emphasise them):

 

Speed is life, try to stay above 350 knots and ideally above 400 knots.

Turn gently, with the mild LERX like wing on the F5 and small engines it can bleed speed rapidly.

I generally leave flaps on auto during turning for best turn performance, but bringing the flaps in can be useful to help regain speed quicker.

The gun has a low rate of fire, so you need to practice getting a good track on the target

If using missiles, learn to uncage and lead to make them more likely to hit. Gar8 / aim9b is pretty trash but the aim9p and p5 are quite usable.

 

 

Hi Sideburns, great tips.  But just a clarification about the LERXs.  The purpose of those were in fact meant to keep speed up during a turn.  The violent vortexes they generate help to keep airflow stuck to the wing during high AoA and G.  With out the LERXs is when the speed bleeds in a turn, like the MiG-21 plain delta.

Also, the gun is actually fast firing, definitely not slow like the MiGs.  You can hear the guns snarling, rather than single bursts, because the rate of fire is so high.  But I agree with you about your tracking comment.  DCS I feel did not model the accuracy of the F-5's bullet speed well.  I think there was some custom fix available from end users here, but this seems to get overwritten after every update (could be wrong, but seems like it).

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Also, the gun is actually fast firing, definitely not slow like the MiGs.  You can hear the guns snarling, rather than single bursts, because the rate of fire is so high.  

Which MiG? Each M39 has pretty much the same rate as a Gsh-30-1, the F-5 just has two of them. Together they’re roughly comparable to the Gsh-23 in the MiG-21 but the 20 mm round has a ton more velocity so you don’t need crazy lead. The obvious downside is a lot less explosive so you need more hits.
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28 minutes ago, r4y30n said:


Which MiG? Each M39 has pretty much the same rate as a Gsh-30-1, the F-5 just has two of them. Together they’re roughly comparable to the Gsh-23 in the MiG-21 but the 20 mm round has a ton more velocity so you don’t need crazy lead. The obvious downside is a lot less explosive so you need more hits.

Good point.  I Suppose I was comparing against MiG-19.  The Gsh-30-1 is not much of a comparison point as the only MiG that I am aware that used it was the 29, which is a different generation.

For the MiG-21 gun, the wiki details say they are alleged.  Do you have the official rpm?

Whatever the case, the original comment that the guns are slow firing is inaccurate.

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On 12/12/2021 at 6:46 PM, LowRider88 said:

 

Hi Sideburns, great tips.  But just a clarification about the LERXs.  The purpose of those were in fact meant to keep speed up during a turn.  The violent vortexes they generate help to keep airflow stuck to the wing during high AoA and G.  With out the LERXs is when the speed bleeds in a turn, like the MiG-21 plain delta.

Also, the gun is actually fast firing, definitely not slow like the MiGs.  You can hear the guns snarling, rather than single bursts, because the rate of fire is so high.  But I agree with you about your tracking comment.  DCS I feel did not model the accuracy of the F-5's bullet speed well.  I think there was some custom fix available from end users here, but this seems to get overwritten after every update (could be wrong, but seems like it).

On the lerx point, it was meant that you have the wings to manoeuvre and do high aoa but not the engine power to back it up. Indeed lerx are intended to "enhance" airflow over the wing and make it more efficient at lifting as you turn.

On the low rate of fire point it was meant in reference to the Gau25, Gau8 and M61, that you can't rely so much on volume of fire as with these guns and do need a good track on target more like a ww2 bird, and also the accuracy issue as you mention is not great.

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5 hours ago, Sideburns said:

On the lerx point, it was meant that you have the wings to manoeuvre and do high aoa but not the engine power to back it up. Indeed lerx are intended to "enhance" airflow over the wing and make it more efficient at lifting as you turn.

On the low rate of fire point it was meant in reference to the Gau25, Gau8 and M61, that you can't rely so much on volume of fire as with these guns and do need a good track on target more like a ww2 bird, and also the accuracy issue as you mention is not great.

Ah, okay, got your point, Sideburns 👍

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Great post and really good advice here with the F5E. I’ve been getting into Enigmas Cold War PvP server and just bought the F5E so tips here are very valuable. Question about the flaps… are you all using the Emergency flaps or just the regular flaps. 

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I would like to propose another technique.  People here can experiment for themselves to see if it works or if I am lying.

I don't know if there is a technical term for it, so I will just call it Pitch Bouncing.

 

I think we have all been there, low to the ground, perhaps at the end of a Split-S, when we realize, whoops, we are too close to the ground.  The instinctive reaction is to pull the control column right into your chest.  But the end result is that you cause too much induced drag and start skidding right into the ground.

If you relax a bit on the pitching up, you can actually have a better chance at pulling up, and turn a bit more tightly.

 

Taking this into account, when you are one the tail of an opponent but can't seem to get it into your cone of fire, you can do something similar.  You can pull hard, then relax, pull hard, then relax.  I have used this before and was able to close on an AI opponent which otherwise was always out of range.

 

Technically, there may be some reason for this.  Initial instantaneous turns before full on maneuvering are generally more tighter than a sustained turn, as induced drag builds up.  But the instantaneous turn is just that, instantaneous, and temporary.

Perhaps with Pitch Bouncing, you can insert some instantaneous turns into your regular sustained turns for a better overall turn performance.

I believe he best way to execute this is to make the "bounces" small.  Much like how people say doing a series of small, short hi and low yoyos is more effective than large, drawn out yoyos.

You can pitch up just to the point before your cockpit frame starts shaking (induced drag limit), then relax the stick, and repeat.

 

I believe this works in the Roll axis as well.  People can try this all through out a rolling scissors, as I have done.

 

It would be interesting to know if others are able to get similar results.

 

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  • 2 months later...

There is no substitute for smooth flying. If you just pull and relax you do two things: increase AoA more than necessary increasing drag, and you'll make yourself sick. 😛

If you fly smooth, pull and hold the turn, you'll stay with your opponent better. Also, don't get too close to whoever you're chasing. You want to stick with them but also be constantly looking for opportunity to get a shot.

If you're flying against another human, this is even more critical. If they know what they're doing they'll fly in such a way as to prevent missile shots and will defend against gun shots.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Some things that helped me to fight against the AI, some points have already been written here:

- Assign the Auto and Up position for the maneuvering flaps to your HOTAS. Try to leave them up for most of the time, set them to AUTO if you've become slow and/ or need to yank the nose around a bit more for a snap shot.

- Avoid rolling and pulling Gs at the same time - better "fly the cross" like it's taught for the Tomcat.

- When turning, try to keep the nose below the horizon.

- Assign the roll limiter to your HOTAS, for example the paddle switch. That way, you can use the nice roll rate of the F-5 for a vertical scissors. As soon as the AI overshoots, try to place a gun snapshot. Because if the AI knows it has overshot, it's going to use the vertical and the F-5 can not keep up there most of the time.

- If the AI goes up for a loop or an Immelmann, keep your nose down-ish, as soon as the enemy plane comes down, roll in behind them.

- Try to retain your energy, the F-5 in DCS is not a good dogfighter at low speeds. Therefore, also try to gain speed and a bit of altitude before the merge, you'll need both. 

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