How are you supposed to learn this thing with these horrible training missions? - Page 4 - ED Forums
 


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Old 05-19-2017, 10:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MHgamer1107 View Post
So a quick update here:
In the startup tutorial it doesnt register engine start until i close the fuel cutoff after the engine is fully started
Its ****ing bullshit
Back, when I was learning the Shark, I made this list with the most useful tutorial videos that I found on YT .. give them a try:

https://youtu.be/JpLNdsHg7OE?list=PL...Yo3D-xJgbFdz5I

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Old 05-19-2017, 02:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by imacken View Post
I can now confirm that the missions we have been talking about are the same ones mentioned in the post above by clclidfan.
They are the ones integrated into the game, sadly, as is confirmed in the linked post.
Keep in mind that these missions were created by a member of the community. They were widely regarded as some of the best training missions, and the community was very pleased when ED incorporated them into the game to replace their own, outdated training missions.

I learned to fly the Ka-50 before these missions were available and it was a mite difficult I'm here to tell you.

I haven't trained with Bigfoot's missions and can't say first hand how well they work. The thing is, they're community-made, and maybe you shouldn't judge them quite as harshly, and instead look for additional sources of information, like others have already suggested, instead of expecting to be spoon-fed every bit of information. This community is so diverse regarding our backgrounds, there'll probably never be training missions that cover everything for the complete beginner. Some people tried to do that, and stopped after just one lesson because of the insane amount of topics to cover.

In short, you can't just expect to sit back and be taught every step. There's a lot of initiative required to learn something as complex as the Shark and the Hog, and to the best of my knowledge these training missions do provide a very good introduction and I wish they'd already been around when I got the Shark.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Yurgon View Post
Keep in mind that these missions were created by a member of the community. They were widely regarded as some of the best training missions, and the community was very pleased when ED incorporated them into the game to replace their own, outdated training missions.

I learned to fly the Ka-50 before these missions were available and it was a mite difficult I'm here to tell you.

I haven't trained with Bigfoot's missions and can't say first hand how well they work. The thing is, they're community-made, and maybe you shouldn't judge them quite as harshly, and instead look for additional sources of information, like others have already suggested, instead of expecting to be spoon-fed every bit of information. This community is so diverse regarding our backgrounds, there'll probably never be training missions that cover everything for the complete beginner. Some people tried to do that, and stopped after just one lesson because of the insane amount of topics to cover.

In short, you can't just expect to sit back and be taught every step. There's a lot of initiative required to learn something as complex as the Shark and the Hog, and to the best of my knowledge these training missions do provide a very good introduction and I wish they'd already been around when I got the Shark.
Good grief! No-one is talking about being spoon fed. I have spent months learning the Hog and the Spit, and have spent many years learning all sorts of flight sims. All the way back to Geoff Crammond's 'Aviator'. (How many remember that?)
This discussion is simply about the mechanics of the training missions not working well. It's as simple as that!
Let me repeat, the 2 issues are: 1) trigger events don't always move the mission on, and 2) it would be really helpful to total novices if the text didn't disappear from view soon after it was spoken. Let it stay on screen till the next event.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:21 PM   #34
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Good grief! No-one is talking about being spoon fed.
You're probably right; I guess I should have directed my post more at the thread starter.

It's just that terms like "horrible" and "poor" (and some that are easily against the forum rules) seemed to imply a certain level of expectation that these missions probably never intended to live up to.

Or to put it differently: If I had created these missions, I'd have a lot of instinctive reactions while reading through this thread. Fixing the missions would be very low on that list.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Yurgon View Post
You're probably right; I guess I should have directed my post more at the thread starter.

It's just that terms like "horrible" and "poor" (and some that are easily against the forum rules) seemed to imply a certain level of expectation that these missions probably never intended to live up to.

Or to put it differently: If I had created these missions, I'd have a lot of instinctive reactions while reading through this thread. Fixing the missions would be very low on that list.
Yes, the problems being discussed here, are not unique to the Ka-50 misions. Both the issues mentioned are common throughout DCS modules. However, issue #1 in my previous post seems a bit worse in the Ka-50 examples.
It could be down to users - like me - being fairly unfamiliar with helicopters, and things taking longer to sink in, and all the inevitable mistakes that arise as a result!
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:11 PM   #36
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I have the feeling this thread keeps going in circles somehow. What I wanted to point out earlier, by the way, was that the inability to navigate the tutorials is a shortcoming of DCS, not a problem of the missions themselves.

The thing about different backgrounds is definitely true, but lets face it: I didn't quite get the feeling that having flown the Huey earlier gave me an edge during start-up. It sure does later on, but the first training mission is a bit of a level-ish playing field.

The tradeoff one always has to make when designing these is, that you either get the 'text disappears too soon and I can't keep up!' complaint when you put in somewhat longer explanations of how things are being done, or you the equally valid 'short texts walk me through getting this done but I don't understand much of it!' complaint.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Kang View Post
The tradeoff one always has to make when designing these is, that you either get the 'text disappears too soon and I can't keep up!' complaint when you put in somewhat longer explanations of how things are being done, or you the equally valid 'short texts walk me through getting this done but I don't understand much of it!' complaint.
The simple answer, as I've said before, is to not make the text disappear at all. Keep it on screen until the event is triggered.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:49 PM   #38
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I just tried one of the training missions again and the text did indeed stay on for at least two minutes after the audio completed playing. I assume it stays on for quite a while then. No offence meant, but what are you doing by the side? Stepping away to paint your ceiling?
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kang View Post
I just tried one of the training missions again and the text did indeed stay on for at least two minutes after the audio completed playing. I assume it stays on for quite a while then. No offence meant, but what are you doing by the side? Stepping away to paint your ceiling?
It stays on for 1'40", but your comments are irrelevant as you are not looking at this from a complete novice's point of view. There is no need for it to disappear at all. Just go away when the event is triggered, as I have said a few times now.
With any training mission - or IRL, first flying lessons or driving lessons - the trainee is a complete novice. There is no point in you trying out the missions from an experienced pilot point of view. You don't need the training, you are familiar with the location of the controls, and the sequence of events.
Although this conversation is getting out of hand, let me give you some examples off the top of my head.
1) when a total novice is trying to deal with an actual sequence of switching where the order is critical. Then, it is necessary to review the training text, quite often more than once, as the switches may have to be returned to their original state. You will find that 1'40" goes very quickly at times. Instructions lost and restart required.
2) when the instructor issues commands for flying at xx knots, and yy feet and heading xxx, etc. etc. that may take some time to achieve, and in these training missions, there is not a great tolerance for the conditions to be met. Again, 1'40" is a short time under these circumstances, and it is impossible to retrieve the conditions one has to comply with in order for the instructor to move to the next command.
I wonder how flying or driving lessons would go for novices if the instructor was only allowed to speak once, and not be allowed to repeat his/her command!
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Old 05-20-2017, 12:59 AM   #40
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I use Chucks guides on a second screen now when I jump back in the Ka 50 or any aircraft, when it's been awhile since I flown for a quick refresher, I get the novice's part tho imacken, it can be very daunting when starting out.

Now I don't think it's a bad idea that some of this gets offloaded to the community occasionally, BigfootMSR has done an amazing job back then to do these training missions for the Ka 50 back in 01-25-2012. It would have taken a lot of time to put these together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigfootMSR View Post

Once I had released that mission, I thought I could apply what I had learned to the Blackshark and set out to do just that. I watched the official videos over and over again laying out the mission verbiage and style on paper then more research to figure out how to set the triggers to see the various components of the cockpit. After many long hours of research and asking questions here on the forum, we have the missions as they are today. While I personally feel there is always room for improvement, and I am all ears, I feel these missions are complete. Each of these missions took about 20 hours each with the cold startup taking approximately 40 hours due to a lack of knowledge to complete. The Advanced ABRIS training also took about 40 hours due to the amount of information and complexity it has. In the end, I am always open for suggestions and above all else, I hope this effort has been helpful in helping new pilots get flying sooner and enjoying the game faster.
WOW, Thanks BigfootMSR

Perhaps an update is needed, by the community? It would be better to just change the triggers, Just add more time for text? Use the space bar more? Similar to some of the the Mig21 training and not rely on the triggered actions as much.

Looking at the Mig 21 startup, it has "cockpit argument in range" in the conditions section. min 0.5 Max 1, this has to work before the training removes the last highlighted item etc.

The Mig 21's arguments seem to be coded in order I.E Element Name PNT_153
Next trigger = cockpit argument in range 153. min 0.5 / Max 1

The other models such as the A10 and Ka 50 seem to be all over the place, seems the arguments number is not written into the name like they did on the Mig 21 etc.

Does anyone know how you find and match these arguments for the Ka 50?

COMM-PWR-AVSK-PTR = (286)
COMM-PWR-UKV-2-PTR = (284)

What does the MIN: and MAX: do for the "argument" in the conditions?

I guess this is where the sim gets stuck at times and stops moving forward? Most of the MINIMUMS: are set to 1, where the mig's MIN is set to 0.5. mmm?

Note:
I found this thread: UH-1 Huey - Mission Editor-Trigger Conditions, Actions, Arguments & Values and saw that DSPALLASVI went through the lua files and collected all the argument and values and put them all in nicely formatted PDF for the Huey!!

So I guess the arguments are all set correctly for the KA 50, just need to add more time and possibly pause more at certain places and use the space bar more to continue would be a better option for the beginner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHgamer1107 View Post
As the title reads...

Half of the time it doesnt even register me clicking anything... They are literally broken and there is no touches on how actually to take off, for example everytime i pull up the collective it does half a back flip and i can recover fine but as soon as i move the cyclic a tenth of a centimeter back it does the whole backflip thing again... kind of disappointed in these missions
The part the OP wrote about taking off or flying a helicopter is the real hard part, it's sort of expected at the DCS level of sim you would know or have read a great deal and watched some videos etc, as the physics and systems are the closest we get in a simulator on PC, I mean would you jump in a real Ka 50 and just have a crack at it lol. Yes, it's still just a sim and when starting out you just want to get going and do everything NOW, this adds to the frustration tho, lol.

That part of the sim is very much helped my this great community, someone will even jump in game and be happy to spend time with you, getting you on your way, this is more important for the KA 50 as it takes a bit to get your head around the Autopilot, once you get the Oh that's what it's doing, you realize it takes much of the workload off the single seat pilot to make it easier to fight with all by yourself.

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Last edited by David OC; 05-20-2017 at 01:12 AM.
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