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UH1H Gunship Castrated!


Gizzy

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Update 31-10-19

 

"DCS World

 

  • Bullets of M134 minigun will be less powerful."

Very significantly reduced the effectiveness of the UH1H in gunship mode. Sure at very close quarters you can have some success but have never known the mini guns to be so useless since the module was released.

 

Never fired the mini gun but certainly .762 GPMG in light and heavy modes - thankfully they were not 'tuned' by ED :( Maybe with with dual cockpit consider bayonet mounts:music_whistling:

 

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  • ED Team

Yes they were slightly overpowered, as mentioned above even killing tanks.

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You know there's something wrong when the Huey killed more tanks than the Kamov, and that by just flying around with no targeting involved.

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Looking forward to it, Belsimtek!:thumbup:

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Yes they were slightly overpowered, as mentioned above even killing tanks.

 

If anything that is the result of stupid ai programmed accuracy with door gunners and whatever damage model the target has been dealt.

 

No dispute on that point not that I ever engaged tanks with a Huey BUT the current setting appears to be an excessive over reaction - which is very noticeable if you have ever used .762 in sustained fire role...

 

The mini gun with a top rate of 6000rpm however I believe set at 3-4000 rounds per minute - is totally destructive against soft skinned vehicles... not like the current offering.

 

Please, refer it to be reviewed by SMEs if possible..

 

 

On a similar vein the HE rockets have always been terribly ineffective despite a fantastic graphic of the explosion. Put 50 troops 1 metre apart and fire 1 rocket into the middle. 1 maybe 2 may be killed. DCS presumably ignores fragmentation and only counts direct hits thinking that all of the Caucasus terrain is made up of the softest and deepest Irish bog that contains all blast and explosive damage :)

 

Wishing all health, love, wealth, happiness and just everything your heart desires but especially DCS simulating accurately everything for all and still be as cheap as it is now ... :thumbup:


Edited by Gizzy

 

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Hey Gizzy/ED,

 

I think something fishy is going on after the armor and M134 adjustments in the latest patch/-es: depending on angle and/or orientation of some APC types (e.g. AAV-7) , the M134 does no damage at all. However, some APC -- e.g. the BMP-3 -- are completely bulletproof against the minigun, no matter what angle it's hit at. I've done a quick test on that, and I think the current state is not a feature but a bug:

 

 

As you can see, only if the AAV7 is positioned/facing perpendicular to the minigun, it takes damage. I've attached the .miz and .trk for this video.

m134_test.trk

m134_test.miz

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The mini gun with a top rate of 6000rpm however I believe set at 3-4000 rounds per minute - is totally destructive against soft skinned vehicles... not like the current offering.

 

The Rounds Per Minute != Damage Level

 

A 7.62mm is destructive on armored targets like many trucks (many trucks has armored cockpits), but it ain't deadly because it is 2400 RPM but because it is 7.62 and multiple hits on target = Damage Amount.

 

In DCS the vehicles are still health bar units, meaning their health is from 100% to 0% when they explode, with couple effects between at various levels.

 

So why the high RPM weapons are more effective is that you have one bullet to do X % of damage, so if you put on target (anywhere) a X amount of bullets faster than with lower RPM weapon, you will destroy that target faster.

 

But that ain't the case with the real vehicle. You can put a million rounds through a truck tarp cover behind the rear compartment, when there is nothing behind it, you don't do any damage. You can shoot million bullets through a tire, it will not blow up the vehicle.

 

You can put single bullet to engine coolant unit, and it will cause trouble later. You can put one bullet to each tires and you will immobilize the vehicle, you don't need million for that.

You can put one bullet to head of the driver, and the vehicle will keep going until hitting something and you don't need million bullets on that.

 

What is the destructive in minigun is its increased capability to hit something with that single bullet when shooting at the target. And putting more random rounds on the target, is increasing the probability to hit something important.

 

And that will not work until ED is going to release the damage modeling to ground vehicles where there is dozens of different areas that you can hit with various effects.

 

But when it comes to armored vehicles that are armored against a 5.45-7.62x39, then you are not going to cause such effect as penetrate the armor because you put 20 rounds on the same square meter area instead one.

 

Yes, eventually you could/would wear down the armor capability withstand the impacts, but it is far longer process than you would do by flying helicopter and randomly putting rounds on a such vehicle armor part.

 

Yes, the M134 minigun is higher caliber, 7.62x51, it will have more effect than 7.62x39 at closer ranges, but its main effect is really the range benefit for penetration. But it ain't more magical caliber than example squad PK machine gun is with its 7.62x54R caliber, that is as well stopped by the APC's and IFV's armors at slightly longer ranges.

 

A minigun is excellent weapon when you have a target behind a defense position like a building, wall or such. As you can tear up those constructions with the minigun. But it ain't designed to be used against a armored personal carriers to destroy them as you would with a cannon. It is for the usual targets, infantry, their unarmored transport vehicles, the constructed defense points etc. In other words, soft targets.

 

 

A good sample how M134 works.

 

 

The problem again is not the modules, now when the M134 is fixed for the penetration capability. The problem is that we do not (yet) have a proper targets. Meaning that we do not have infantry as we should, we don't have the defensive positions as we should, no technicals (the open truck with a MMG/HMG mounted on the rear) or anything like a infantry in buildings etc.

 

This is just limiting that the UH-1H is put way too often against a targets that it would never be flying around.

 

I just tested it against a Ural-375, LT-MB and BMP-1, and it can still destroy truck quickly, MB-LT took slightly longer, but it has just like 3-5mm armor around it, so nothing really to stop at close range firing. And BMP-1 took many passes and close range engagement to get it wearing down, mainly from the rear.

 

But it is not odd thing considering that BMP-1 was designed to withstand the 7.62 armor piercing calibers at around 50-100 meter ranges from front hemisphere (armors are about 15-20mm all around), so you really need to get to its rear to start doing some damage, and that should be for the transport compartment, as the engine is in the front so you can't kill it, or the driver, so it would likely stay always in the move, but you could kill carried squad inside it.

 

But with a modern armor penetration rounds, you likely put nice holes on that. But that shouldn't be in the DCS as it should be about Vietnam era cartridges.

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Hi I have spoken to the team,

 

7.62mm had double the shell energy it should have had,

 

In DCS unless the shell penetrates it does no damage to the unit.

 

Some angled armour is more difficult / impossible to penetrate with 7.62mm

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Well I'm all in favour of the update. As mentioned above, was a little silly that the Huey was the best gunship in game.

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What a fantastic hail of 7.62 rounds from a minigun would do to an armored vehicle in real life is something not completely modeled in DCS at the moment.

 

It would not penetrate the armor of things like a BTR-80, BMP, BRDM, or Tank.

 

It's NOT going to make the vehicle explode, as we've seen thus far.

 

What it would do IRL however, is produce a virtual mission kill on it.

 

The hits from the minigun would ruin all the sensors on the outside of the vehicle. It would destroy the camera, damage the external armament (12,7, .50bmg).

 

It might even immobilize it in the case of wheeled vehicles by destroying the tires and wheels.

 

If this option could be modeled somehow, it would add a lot of realism to DCS. Right now we have a boolean decision as to whether it's killed or not.

 

I'm submitting that a midrange option is necessary.

 

The other elephant in the room, is that helicopters such as the Mi-8 and Huey are just not intended to be in the same place as something like a BMP-3, a T-55 tank or even a mechanized infantry company of any kind.

 

We frequently put them there as we "chase the dragon" of pushing ourselves, and each DCS module to kill higher and higher layers of threat.

 

Yesterday, I watched (with amazement) a video by a well known multiplayer squadron in which they made several unsuccessful attempts to kill an SA-19 Tunguska with two Hueys.

 

Please, look online and find examples of even an Apache or a AH-1(W/Z) engaging these vehicles in combat. Over 90% of the examples are shooting a hellfire or guns at three guys hiding in a ditch somewhere.

 

Shooting infantry and soft skinned vehicles from a Huey with rox and miniguns doesn't sound very exciting compared to destroying modern combloc APC's and fighting vehicles with big guns on them, but whether we choose to call it a "gunship" or not, this is what the UH-1 helicopter was made to do, and what it actually did.

 

Now, it's not entirely our fault for pushing the envelope here.

 

The infantry in DCS...... suck. They seem like an afterthought, dropped in from 20,000 feet.

 

The AI needs a lot of work, there are new elements needed (an enemy PKM gunner, for example, and let's have a DShK too).

 

Most UH-1 pilots I come across don't even operate the door gunners themselves. They just fly around and let the AI shoot. I bet a lot of them don't even know HOW to man them.

 

No wonder it's not exciting. :-|

 

And since we're talking about excessive damage - This cuts both ways: let's not forget that you can STILL shoot an Mi-8 down with a dirty look. There are open issues reported on this that have been unaddressed for quite some time.

 

So to wrap it up, while I do not necessarily disagree with the power adjustment made here, I do believe that without the benefit of a "mission kill" damage tier, and infantry elements that can respond and challenge a light helicopter like the UH-1, it does leave us with a glaring and unrealistic imbalance.

 

Summing it up, my recos:

 

1. Leave the power where it should be, IRL wise. But this means there's more work to do to balance that change out:

 

2. Add a mission kill tier to the damage model. This could be represented by putting the unit in AI OFF, and adding light smoke but not exploding it, e.g.

3. Develop the infantry into the historically accurate opponent it should be for this, and other helos.

4. Provide a way in the ME for the designer to prevent the AI from just wasting everything and forcing the pilot to do it himself.

 

 

This is by far not a rant, but a serious, high altitude look at what's going on from someone who only flies RW in DCS.

 

V/R

 

/Fargo


Edited by fargo007

 

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Agree with Fargo here. This adjustment is very welcome and makes much more sense from a realism point of view. This should put the Huey back into the kind of operations it belongs and stop seeing SEAD missions or heavy armored convoy hunting with Hueys. It will also gives room to the OH-58D and it's Hellfires.

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With all of this said please please please improve the infantry and combined arms in general it is no wonder why people want to go after SA-19s in a Huey when shooting at infantry just results in no reaction, infantry until they are hit don't respond to incoming fire. It would be really nice if they stopped returning fire and moved to seek cover. Also making the infantry role more important in DCS would also give a new lease on life to the lift helicopters. Remember for the Huey and MI-8 the gunship role is just an additional duty.

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The damage modeling is coming. That is already a old news.

First it comes to WW2 aircrafts, then to ground units, and then to modern modules.

 

You are going to see these multiple level damages like tires, optics etc destroyed.

 

I hope that they would release as soon they get the system working, and then on each update release a updates ground units in order they remake them. So that one week we get example T-55 and T-72 versions, on other week a BTR family, then a HUMVEE family and LAV-25 etc.

This instead waiting to see all units coming out at once, that should be with a Stable branch style.

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Well I'm all in favour of the update. As mentioned above, was a little silly that the Huey was the best gunship in game.

 

Except Huey is no where near a gunship status. A Mi-24 is a gunship, a UH-1H is a armed utility helicopter like a Mi-8 is.

Why it was silly that you could put down a 24 BMP-2 and BTR vehicle with one load.... So now it is back to its place.

 

I can't wait that we get the RTS elements, where we could maybe finally see a proper team-squad-platoon level of infantry operations, formations etc. And the actions automatically like unmount from vehicles when attacked and vehicle drove to cover etc. Would make the missions far more interesting when helicopters like UH-1H could be used more dynamically with infantry squads to be dropped and picked up dynamically without scripting etc.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Except Huey is no where near a gunship status. A Mi-24 is a gunship, a UH-1H is a armed utility helicopter like a Mi-8 is.

Why it was silly that you could put down a 24 BMP-2 and BTR vehicle with one load.... So now it is back to its place.

 

 

You are far too simplistic and dismissive.

 

DCS alludes to cover a wide period of time form WW2 to date and is used as such by many.

 

In certain eras, Vietnam for example, the Huey most certainly was a gunship and indeed was operational as such until 2003 by some countries.

 

Of course, .762 in mini gun should not take out tank and BMP2's no doubt but the modelled .762 minigun which should be set to around 4000 rpm is not modelled correctly against soft trucks POL trucks etc... often requiring excessive time on target. The main issue was Ai firing mini guns - they were too accurate keeping the rounds on the one spot - they still are.

 

Never fire the mini gun but if you have used .762 in sustained fire mode from say a GPMG (around 2000rpm) against light trucks you would understand the Huey is well and truly neutered

 

Not every one flies fast modern jets... even if ED has been for some time focused most resources in this area....

 

And as for Rockets against infantry their 'kill' range is laughable. They are useless in game.

 

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You are far too simplistic and dismissive.

 

n certain eras, Vietnam for example, the Huey most certainly was a gunship and indeed was operational as such until 2003 by some countries.

 

It was *the* gunship for a while ( in Vietnam ), untill the AH-1 arrived as a direct result of cutting out the bits of the Huey ( albeit the short one ) that weren't needed for the role. I don't think they used it for attacking armour though, just as support for infantry operations - there was plenty of fixed wing support on call for harder targets anyway.

 

There's something very underpowered about splash/blast damage in DCS, I feel. Not just Huey rockets, but bombs & some missiles which should do far more like the HARM.

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I formerly served on USMC LAV-25’s as a crewman and gunner. The LAV is very similar in armor to the BMP, BRDM and BTR. We were immune from penetration of .30 cal rounds no matter how fast you shot them at us. Granted the tires/run flat inserts could potentially be shredded to the point of immobilization. A .30 is just going to give the crew a headache, till they spot the source of fire and rain down 25mm till the threat is neutralized. I am not going to be specific but we could withstand up to .50 cal under most circumstances.

 

 

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Maybe ED team should add AP ammo as an option?

Discussion and demo video of 7.62mm AP rounds in action:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=255100&page=2

 

Modern AP rounds from small caliber weapons like 7.62mm (30 cal) are designed to do damage to the armor that infantry wears as well as defeat windshields, car doors, etc. It is not designed for anything more. The argument that modern AP rounds could defeat 18mm of armor or whatever may be true. However anything more than pickup is going to have more than 18mm of active plate armor. There isn’t a 30.cal round, even if you shoot 1000 rounds at the same spot, that can defeat even the thinnest active armor that basically every modern military uses now. Even 50 cal depleted uranium rounds aren’t going to defeat active tank armor.

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