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F-14 module is great, but what's with OP


royalwin

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I was flying it, full load of ordinance, 4XAim54, 2X tanks and I'm not even in full military power and it accelerates to over M1.0 - supercruise! That's nonsense.

I chased an AI F-14 with a full load of external stores in a clean Eagle, he just accelerated away... ridiculous.

I shot an AI F-14 with 2X 120b, and an aim9M, and over 100 hits of 20mm (according to TacView) and he was still flying and turned and almost hit me with an aim 9!

Aim 54 is active off the rail requiring no support, and reacquires after losing track when it appears to be way outside of the seeker view, or even through a mountain!

 

I mean, I love this module, but come on...

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I was flying it, full load of ordinance, 4XAim54, 2X tanks and I'm not even in full military power and it accelerates to over M1.0 - supercruise! That's nonsense.

 

I chased an AI F-14 with a full load of external stores in a clean Eagle, he just accelerated away... ridiculous.

 

I shot an AI F-14 with 2X 120b, and an aim9M, and over 100 hits of 20mm (according to TacView) and he was still flying and turned and almost hit me with an aim 9!

 

Aim 54 is active off the rail requiring no support, and reacquires after losing track when it appears to be way outside of the seeker view, or even through a mountain!

 

 

 

I mean, I love this module, but come on...

It seems to me that You are playing the "old" 14, before last patch... After that, they lower the engine power and raise the drag and this kind of performance aren't really easy achievable anymore... There's a full thread about this... Have You updated the game?

 

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If anything engine performance was slightly low at high alts and slightly too much at low alts. These tweaks are not in yet though as we are still finishing it. That said: it is simply a strong aircraft with two very powerful engines. It is a beast, like a muscle car, if you like.

 

The AI btw is no measurement; the AI uses an SFM and is pretty much out of our hands. You can test vs performances only reliably against other player aircraft.

 

As for the missiles: All missiles in DCS guide through mountains etc. This is because all missiles share more or less the same INS guidance, which ED is working on to improve. It only becomes apparent with the aim54 due to its much longer range. But apart from that and the seeker being active because we still do not have access to it to model it correctly, there is nothing "op" about it. It was a kick ass aircraft in real life and it kicks ass in game.

 

That said, we very much appreciate your input and as you know, continously strive to improve all aspects of it to provide the highest accuracy possible. That said as well, it is already very close to what it is supposed to be. Thank you.

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AIM-9 Causes Massive Drag

 

A little footage from some internal TAW testing...

 

Far right F-14 is clean, middle-right F-14 has 4x AIM-9M and 4x AIM-54C... the far left has 6x AIM-54C and 2x AIM-9M.

 

The 2 extra AIM-9 cause a massive increase in drag.

 

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It has 4 jest, you decribed 3.

Regardless, AFAIK, anything carried in the tunnel has significantly less drag then having it wing mounted.

 

However most Sims only allow for a single drag value. So as a compremise, drag for that weapon is usually avaraged between all the carry points. So I assume the drag of the AIM-54 while carried is very low (it's usually carried only in the tunnel).

 

After launch, the missile FM kicks in and the drag while in flight is "as intended" (I'm avoiding "correct" intentionally).

 

 

So the drag of a carried Aim-9 or an AIM-7 is significantly larger, because it's carried on multiple aircraft, and it's one size fits all in most of these cases.

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The drag of the missiles is unfortunately not modeled by us. According to both our pilot and RIO SMEs payloads in the tunnel were almost not noticeable. For many weapons in DCS the drag value is too high, which is why you get the most accurate test results with a clean aircraft. We hope we can remedy this issue at some point.

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The drag of the missiles is unfortunately not modeled by us. According to both our pilot and RIO SMEs payloads in the tunnel were almost not noticeable. For many weapons in DCS the drag value is too high, which is why you get the most accurate test results with a clean aircraft. We hope we can remedy this issue at some point.

 

I really hope missiles in DCS don't simply add a set amount of drag when put on an aircraft, that would be ludicrous. The position of the missile on the aircraft fuselage and wether or not it's partially or fully shielded by fairings etc, will all affect how much drag (if any) the missile will produce.

 

I usually test aircraft performance in DCS with the same load attached as described in the flight manual's performance charts. But if we can't get the aircraft to match these because of DCS insisting that an AIM-9 mounted on two different aircraft will produce the exact same drag, then this sim will never be particularly accurate in terms of aircraft performance.

 

This makes me quite worried.

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We have no plans at the moment to introduce anything like disabling Jester. If I may: I kindly disagree that Jester makes the F-14 "op" in Multiplayer. He is way less capable than a human RIO is, and while evolving Jester, instead of introducing such disabling functions, we believe that making him match human behaviour further is the way we would like to go instead.

 

The only thing where I would agree that Jester gives a small advantage atm is his capability to spot missiles a human RIO would not spot just as much. This is being worked on btw. However they would still be indicated on the RWR, excluding heat seakers, which on the other hand can be spotted easily with their smoke also by a human RIO, as they mostly get launched close by.

 

But even these: like a human RIO, if Jester does not look into their direction at the time when they are coming at you, he will miss them just like a human RIO would. Many fail to understand that we implemented human limitations to Jester from the very get go. With all due respect, but saying Jester is "op" or better than a human RIO is simply wrong. This will become even more apparent due to his limitations once human RIOs grow in their experience.

 

On a sidenote: we always strive for more accuracy and more realism and as such try to avoid vocabulary as "op", "nerfing" and similar.


Edited by IronMike

Heatblur Simulations

 

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A little footage from some internal TAW testing...

 

Far right F-14 is clean, middle-right F-14 has 4x AIM-9M and 4x AIM-54C... the far left has 6x AIM-54C and 2x AIM-9M.

 

The 2 extra AIM-9 cause a massive increase in drag.

 

 

 

DCS and the drag of racks. Old story. Try those TALDS and Zunis and be overtaken by the A-10 if you don't light the cans. Have fun dealwithit.png

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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We have no plans at the moment to introduce anything like disabling Jester. If I may: I kindly disagree that Jester makes the F-14 "op" in Multiplayer. He is way less capable than a human RIO is, and while evolving Jester, instead of introducing such disabling functions, we believe that making him match human behaviour further is the way we would like to go instead.

 

The only thing where I would agree that Jester gives a small advantage atm is his capability to spot missiles a human RIO would not spot just as much. This is being worked on btw. However they would still be indicated on the RWR, excluding heat seakers, which on the other hand can be spotted easily with their smoke also by a human RIO, as they mostly get launched close by.

 

But even these: like a human RIO, if Jester does not look into their direction at the time when they are coming at you, he will miss them just like a human RIO would. Many fail to understand that we implemented human limitations to Jester from the very get go. With all due respect, but saying Jester is "op" or better than a human RIO is simply wrong. This will become even more apparent due to his limitations once human RIOs grow in their experience.

 

On a sidenote: we always strive for more accuracy and more realism and as such try to avoid vocabulary as "op", "nerfing" and similar.

 

 

 

While on the topic, is it planned to have Jester manipulate the LANTERN? Pretty difficult for us lone wolves to attack using that and fly.

 

 

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While on the topic, is it planned to have Jester manipulate the LANTERN? Pretty difficult for us lone wolves to attack using that and fly.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

Yes Lantirn for Jester is already in development and should come soon. We cannot give an estimate yet as it is quite the monumental task to make it as clever as possible, but we are progressing well at the moment.

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

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Yes Lantirn for Jester is already in development and should come soon. We cannot give an estimate yet as it is quite the monumental task to make it as clever as possible, but we are progressing well at the moment.

 

 

 

Oh I believe it! That's got to take some pretty clever innovation to get J man to target for us. Great news. Thanks for the response.

 

 

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F-14 is OP in multiplayer because of Jester. Please add an option to disable Jester in multiplayer, as requested by this thread already.

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=232615

 

Have you used Jester? He's okay for the BVR arena and for manage unguided A2G stores, but there's no comparison. A human RIO is superior. I actually wish they'd improve Jester.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Have you used Jester? He's okay for the BVR arena and for manage unguided A2G stores, but there's no comparison. A human RIO is superior. I actually wish they'd improve Jester.

 

We are improving Jester. But making a clever AI is a huge task and takes time. :)


Edited by IronMike

Heatblur Simulations

 

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Yes Lantirn for Jester is already in development and should come soon. We cannot give an estimate yet as it is quite the monumental task to make it as clever as possible, but we are progressing well at the moment.

 

good because i cant hit a damn thing with mk82s haha and i only fly mp and mostly alone so no lgbs for me :(

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We are improving Jester. But making a clever AI is a huge task and takes time. :)

 

Hearing that is all I need to know. I'm well aware of the challenges in programming AI in its most basic iterations, I can only imagine how much something of Jester's complexity would make you want to try out for the discuss event with your monitor.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Hearing that is all I need to know. I'm well aware of the challenges in programming AI in its most basic iterations, I can only imagine how much something of Jester's complexity would make you want to try out for the discuss event with your monitor.

 

 

Thank you for your kind understanding. We recently added RWS and ground stabilize for Jester, Lantirn is currently in the works, we are also working on a fix for human RIOs disconnecting, so that you can bring back Jester to live. We will then continue improving TWS auto and "teach" him better radar work regarding the elevation angles, improve the angle settings and much more. I dont want to spill too many beans, because we will see how much we will actually be able to deliver for him, but the plans for him are to keep constantly evolving and learning, also taking on board the feedback from you guys. :)

Heatblur Simulations

 

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  • 1 month later...

It deeply saddens me to have to shelve DCS for the time being, but if this glaring in-game behavior is not obvious to the game creators even when the fan/purchasers of the product point it out I really can't find any enjoyment here.

 

Okay. Bye bye then.

 

Meanwhile, the rest of us will have a great deal of fun and enjoyment in spite of some of the issues, safe in the knowledge that work is in hand to make things better.

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