DCS: F-14 Air to Air Refueling Tutorial

Congratulations ;)

What kind of curves are you guys running?

Except for the first couple of sittings I haven't had all that much trouble catching the basket, but I always start oscillating while hooked up. It's exhausting to the point where I have to take a shower after flying, and the tiniest lapse in concentration will make me lose the basket.

So last night I decided the oscillating was due to my inability to make small enough corrections and, as always, I blamed the equipment. So I tried setting up some joystick curves for my t16km. I've been running all 0 until now, but now I tried 10 in pitch and roll (I don't bother with rudder during aar anyway). Apart from the first try, which was revolting, I had a much smoother ride for the rest of the session. I may even try going higher in the curves in search for the sweet spot, but it's very time-consuming, and I don't want to completely mess up my resolution at higher deflections.

Yeah, so you guys saying it's easy, what are your sticks and curves?

Yeah, so you guys saying it's easy, what are your sticks and curves?

It's only easy after you get it. It's like with handstand. You train for long and one day you just do it.

Same stick, no curves, deadzone 3. It's no problem in SP to change curves just for AAR but you'll want to hit a sweet spot later on and not bother with it again. The deadzone setting I took from ED's default mapping is really helpful for T16k.

The hardest part is to nail the basket. From there you just have to stay in the envelope a bit forward and higher than the catching point up to almost hitting the tanker engines. Less freedom in lateral movement though.

It's only easy after you get it. It's like with handstand. You train for long and one day you just do it.

 

Same stick, no curves, deadzone 3. It's no problem in SP to change curves just for AAR but you'll want to hit a sweet spot later on and not bother with it again. The deadzone setting I took from ED's default mapping is really helpful for T16k.

 

The hardest part is to nail the basket. From there you just have to stay in the envelope a bit forward and higher than the catching point up to almost hitting the tanker engines. Less freedom in lateral movement though.

Maybe I should try experimenting with some deadzone. It doesn't feel quite right though, as it will stay dead centered if I just let go of the stick.

I will report back with results.

What kind of curves are you guys running?

 

Yeah, so you guys saying it's easy, what are your sticks and curves?

Apply 25% Curve on the axes, makes life A LOT easier.

As you get more and more confident u can reduce the curves.

25% seems way too much. What joystick are you useing?

I have a TM WH and use 0 deadzone and no curves.

I fly helicopters with no curves. I've been learning the tomcat with curvature set at 20 with 0 deadzone.

Granted I've only been flying this for about a week, but I have to say that air to air refueling is driving me nuts. I can't focus on controlling the aircraft and preventing PIO because I can't for the life of me figure out why i can't maintain speed with these tankers. Is it just not possible to maintain speed? Is this a "feel" situation where I just have to learn how to throttle up and down constantly in a way that "clicks" at some point, like when you first fly a helo?

I know part of this is I can't read the air speed dial in the tomcat at all. Those prominent mach numbers are of no use to me and I don't understand how the inner dial works. 40 x 10 should be 400 knots , so if I'm at 400 knots I should be about matching a tanker doing 429, yet I ZOOM past it and then I check the map and it shows my airspeed at over 500. Lol I'm clearly reading something incorrectly.

I can trim the aircraft out just fine. Several attempts now I've had great control and was nearly in the basket, but then I get PISSED because I can't maintain airspeed properly and it seems like the tanker isn't maintaining airspeed either.

Is this why it's so hard in real life, because there's no way to maintain airspeed, you just gotta rub the throttle back and forth like you're rubbing a magic lamp and hope you stay in position? I'm frustrated... gotta work at it I guess haha

Yes it is both feel and constant corrections. Try formation flying for starters and keep practicing. No need to look at the speed dial at any time during AAR.

From what pilots say it's much easier IRL :)

I fly helicopters with no curves. I've been learning the tomcat with curvature set at 20 with 0 deadzone.

Might be a bit harsh on the curvature there. Curves are a dark art and you have to balance response with your hardware and your own flying preferences. Iron Mike of Heatblur has recommended curves much lower in the 0-5 range.

Is this a "feel" situation where I just have to learn how to throttle up and down constantly in a way that "clicks" at some point, like when you first fly a helo?

Yes. Practise, practise and practise. Then practise some more. It can also vary from day to day - some days your eye is in and it's easier. Other days for some reason it can be a royal PITA.

I know part of this is I can't read the air speed dial in the tomcat at all. Those prominent mach numbers are of no use to me and I don't understand how the inner dial works. 40 x 10 should be 400 knots , so if I'm at 400 knots I should be about matching a tanker doing 429, yet I ZOOM past it and then I check the map and it shows my airspeed at over 500. Lol I'm clearly reading something incorrectly.

Inner dial is Knots IAS; outside is the equivalent Mach that your Knots make at your current altitude cos 400 knots at 1,000ft is a much lower Mach number than at 20,000ft.

Either way unless you know before hand what the tanker speed is, you ASI is pretty irrelevant for anything other than initial rejoin.

I can trim the aircraft out just fine. Several attempts now I've had great control and was nearly in the basket, but then I get PISSED because I can't maintain airspeed properly and it seems like the tanker isn't maintaining airspeed either.

Yeah. It's that last 18" that's always the hardest. Tanker is maintaining airspeed, it'll be your throttle inputs lagging behind what is required. You're waiting too long for a positive visual reference that your longitudinal separation is changing; by the time you recognise it and the reaction time for your hand to respond to your brain commands and the engines to spool up/down it's too late.

Trust your judgement. The moment you even have the inkling of a suspicion that there's a change happening don't doubt yourself and hang on for a more discernible confirmation, get a small throttle change in. The earlier you get a correction in the smaller it needs to be; the smaller your correction the less chance you have to over correct; the smaller your correction the easier to re-correct if that initial correction is not quite right.

Is this why it's so hard in real life, because there's no way to maintain airspeed, you just gotta rub the throttle back and forth like you're rubbing a magic lamp and hope you stay in position? I'm frustrated... gotta work at it I guess haha

Yes, basically. Your throttle and stick will be moving constantly in small - i.e. millimetric - displacements.

Might be a bit harsh on the curvature there. Curves are a dark art and you have to balance response with your hardware and your own flying preferences. Iron Mike of Heatblur has recommended curves much lower in the 0-5 range.

 

 

 

Yes. Practise, practise and practise. Then practise some more. It can also vary from day to day - some days your eye is in and it's easier. Other days for some reason it can be a royal PITA.

 

 

 

Inner dial is Knots IAS; outside is the equivalent Mach that your Knots make at your current altitude cos 400 knots at 1,000ft is a much lower Mach number than at 20,000ft.

 

Either way unless you know before hand what the tanker speed is, you ASI is pretty irrelevant for anything other than initial rejoin.

 

 

 

Yeah. It's that last 18" that's always the hardest. Tanker is maintaining airspeed, it'll be your throttle inputs lagging behind what is required. You're waiting too long for a positive visual reference that your longitudinal separation is changing; by the time you recognise it and the reaction time for your hand to respond to your brain commands and the engines to spool up/down it's too late.

 

Trust your judgement. The moment you even have the inkling of a suspicion that there's a change happening don't doubt yourself and hang on for a more discernible confirmation, get a small throttle change in. The earlier you get a correction in the smaller it needs to be; the smaller your correction the less chance you have to over correct; the smaller your correction the easier to re-correct if that initial correction is not quite right.

 

 

 

Yes, basically. Your throttle and stick will be moving constantly in small - i.e. millimetric - displacements.

Thank you to both the recent responses. This does help. I've since reduced my curvature to 0 for the stick axes and it seems fine. If I feel the need then I'll max it to 5. I'm used to tiny inputs from flying helo.

Your explanation is very helpful. Reminds me almost word for word of inspecting parts that I make with cnc, discerning changes in the .01" range. Eventually you can see very small details and variations but it takes practice. Thanks again for the help.

I haven't done any refueling practice in a couple of months because I've been concentrating on combat, but last night I did and it was as if on rails. I just went straight into the basket and got a full tank.

So naturally I decided to up the difficulty level. I made my own mission, starting from carrier with 6000 lbs of fuel, and added a tanker at 20 000 ft. Oh, I made conditions pitch-black and added some turbulence as well.

At first I couldn't understand how anyone could do it, but then I found the night vision goggles. The tanker flew a really bonkers pattern of my own doing, but disregarding that I still found it much harder than in daylight. It took me a long time but eventually Jester said that we were full at 16500, which I'm counting as a win.

I think night aar is one of those practice makes perfect situations, but I'm eager to hear any tips that you guys might have.

Like, isn't the probe supposed to have a light that will illuminate the basket? Before I found the NV goggles I tried to use the flashlight but I'm telling you now so you don't have to try it; it's not a great idea.

Make your outside lights are enabled. Probe has a red light that comes on with extension but will not light if master external light switch is off.

Probe light is working, but it is VERY weak.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=241064

Probe light is working, but it is VERY weak.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=241064

Thanks guys.

Im sure, only a few will be interested, but today is a great day for me in DCS after some hardware-related frustrating days.

Finally I think Im getting to grips with AAR.

After a long time of avoiding, I finally put in the hours and its starting to pay off.

For quite some time, I did only position-flying with the Tanker, often for 30+ minutes (Nevada, instant Action until the Tanker turns to the east), but when I tried to connect it did not work.

I then turned to the Hornet, that is supposed to be easier and since a few days Im being successful. I just took some 9000 pounds without disconnect. Still I have to say, that I did disobey to recommendations to not look at the basket; Im looking at it, but just to see, if the projected flight line of the probe will eventually meet it. I also dont do those throttle push-forward and backs. I just do tiny increments up or down, usually countering a speedrop or gain in advance and it seems to work fine for me.

Coming back to the Tomcat, I also made some connects today and I got 6000 pounds without disconnect. Slowly getting there.

The key aspect to be successful with the Tomcat was going to bomb-mode, as many people suggested. I tried that before, but did not like it for the required trimming, which always seems to give me a unsatisfactory result. Still the plane feels way less sensitive in bombmode and is therefore easier to steer into the pod.

Airspeed indicator in the HUD of the Hornet is to me a big help, also by talking my focus on the stick-corrections away to the throttle; this way "my" autopilot is controlling the plane better than if Id focus on the controlling. Seems this automatism already has developed!

On the Tomcat without speed-indicator (I dont want to use Ctrl-z) I soley have the tanker, which right now is ok but not comfortable. Still a lot of heavy and deep breathing and back-and-forth going on! ;-) But Im very positive that within a few practice-flights it will be ok too.

A good sign, that Im getting there is, that Im taking the jokes from Jester much more relaxed now! "Feel the force, Luke!" :-))

One side-note: I at first had a Saitek X52 and went to a Warthog three monts ago. Also with the better sensitivity for AAR in mind. But actually the Warthog made it worse in the beginning, because its spring in the stick is rather hard. Finally I went to a softer spring (from Sahaj), that at frist I did not like too much, but now Im very happy with. Still the "pay to win"-aspect in my case did not seem to do the trick. Even the soft springs are in the Warthogs-case for sure of some help, its the time you put in, that gets you the success and also the X52 or the harder springs of the Warthog would have done.

I hope, someone new to AAR and frustrated as I was in the beginning, can take away something useful from my lines.

Hi Wali763.

Happy to see you find the way to the basket and take pleasure at it! :)

Just a couple tips which may help you:

1- Whatever the plane, switch off the HUD and forget your instruments. AAR is a matter of close formation flying, which means aligning landmarks on the tanker with landmarks on your plane. Air speed indicator is of course of some interest until you're 1 mile behind the tanker. After that, get your eyes out of the cockpit.

2- Each pilot finds his favorite wing sweep setting, as they did IRL. I feel pretty well in bombing mode (55°) when my plane is light and I don't need to fill my external tanks. When I'm carrying heavy loads and need to fill the externals, I prefer 45°.

Keep it up! :thumbup:

I usually lock up the tanker to get distance and closure rate on the hud. I don't know if you'd do this IRL?

I'll admit I often have to do a yo-yo, lest I overshoot.

Then when I get closer it's strictly visual for me. Well, I also listen to the engines. Doing it with no audio would probably be much harder.

I use bomb mode a lot now. When I first started practicing aar, I didn't like it. But now I find it helps a lot. When you're really heavy it's a bit much sweep, though. I guess it depends on the speed of the tanker, too.

Hi Wali763.

 

Happy to see you find the way to the basket and take pleasure at it! :)

 

Just a couple tips which may help you:

 

1- Whatever the plane, switch off the HUD and forget your instruments. AAR is a matter of close formation flying, which means aligning landmarks on the tanker with landmarks on your plane. Air speed indicator is of course of some interest until you're 1 mile behind the tanker. After that, get your eyes out of the cockpit.

 

2- Each pilot finds his favorite wing sweep setting, as they did IRL. I feel pretty well in bombing mode (55°) when my plane is light and I don't need to fill my external tanks. When I'm carrying heavy loads and need to fill the externals, I prefer 45°.

 

Keep it up! :thumbup:

Thx, I will try turing off the HUD next time, also in the Hornet. I still need to work on the speed control a bit more, since (because im a bit tense) tend to oscillated back and forth too much for the fear of disconnecting. No HUD could definitly help improve...

No HUD could definitly help improve...

It will. Same as stationary flight in helicopters: keep those eyes outside :)

I usually lock up the tanker to get distance and closure rate on the hud. I don't know if you'd do this IRL?

You wouldn't and especially closer than 1nm it is part of procedure to turn WCS standby. Tacan and radio is enough to rendesvous.

I thought as much. Thanks for the input. I'll stop using radar then, at least when there is tacan.

It's not much of a problem to join up without radar, but it takes a bit more time, as you have to be more careful.

Patience is the key to success in air to air refueling.

Patience is the key to success in air to air refueling.

Yes, but sometimes its hard....

Right now I just "hate" the KC-135 in the Caucasus IA-mission. Its for me just soo much harder to refuel than the KC-130 or S-3.

Doing it in the Nevada-IA its all so smooth and usually after 6 min Im full.

With the KC-135 it takes me up to 25 min! The wake turbulence makes it just that much harder to connect and keep the plance calm. It also seems the windows where you can stay during refuel is smaller. But that might be also due to the fact, that I dont have a usable point of reference on the KC-135 yet...

Right now, Im pretty happy with my (beginner) AAR-skills, but I guess it will need some real patience to master the KC-135. :)

Funny thing is, that the comments of Jester usually dont bother me, but hearing them over and over again beneath the KC-135 can get annoying! :lol:

PS: BTW I havent switched off the HUD in the F-14 since it offers no help in AA-mode anyway. Havent done the Hornet recently, but Ill try it next time in the Hornet.

that I dont have a usable point of reference on the KC-135 yet...

This could very well be your core issue with the kc-135, and it is a difficult aircraft in real life as well, the wings confuse you whether you are banked or level, especially since they stretch out so far that they move the body almost out of view.

It is quite "easy" really: look to the sides, or unwind the wing confusion in your head. Easy as in "golf is really easy actually". But not thinking or getting intimidated or in general unwinding the mind can be quite difficult of course.

Real life had SOPs. In our case: pick the spot to reference you are most comfortable with.

For me, F-14& KC-135 is the hardest AAR combo ever. I can easily refuel with hornet. Even with F-16, i could make refuel at 2 out of 2 attempts.

But tomcat is a different story. It is almost impossible to see reference points through the window.

Since there is no digital speed indicator on hud, you just have to rely on your visuals, which also not good as i mentioned above.

But i agree that patience and practise are very important. I guess i made atmost 10 attempts since the release, so it is very normal to feel pain.