Wheel Brakes

I'm usually landing around 130-150 knots and finding that I need to use the drag chute on all but the longest runways to stop safely. I do not go full brakes due to the lack of anti-skid and trouble keeping centered on the runway, but generally, I will be constantly applying varying brake pressure to slow the plane.

Are the brakes in the F5 just not very powerful, or does this behavior seem quite odd, such that I should check some settings? Anyone else have trouble when not using the chute?

These planes always used the chute. It's normal. It's a bit harder if you don't have pedals though as its all on it all off

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've got pedals and modulate the brakes a lot but was not aware that chute use was so common. I hope they make rearm and refuel replace the chute in future patches.

 

 

Besides that the ground crew is for sure happy if they don't have to collect and re-pack the chute after every landing.

They would just have to change the brakes more often. :)

Don't know where you got this info from. Not even the manual says that you have to use it. That's why there are performance tables for landings with and without drag chute.

 

Landing roll without the drag chute at 12000lbs IRL is already only 3400ft (with drag chute 2600ft).

 

Besides that the ground crew is for sure happy if they don't have to collect and re-pack the chute after every landing.

 

Without pedals you can't use the brakes at all on the BST F-5 because the wheels immediately lock, braking capability is greatly reduced and directional control is severely compromised :(

 

IMO there should be e.g. an option on the F-5 menu to simulate anti skid like braking because even with pedals there's no way to find out (due to the lack of actual deceleration feel) how far you are from locking the wheels.

 

This option would be highly desireable for (at least) users without pedals!....alternatively an additional wheel brakes key for e.g. 25%-50% brake application which doesn't lock the wheels...

Interestingly many F5E's are equipped with Anti Skid ... including the Swiss ones as the Anti Skid On/Off switch is located on the centre pedestal. This F5e is not modeled with Anti skid.... so very careful use of the brakes are required.

The problem is that without toe breaks it becomes very hard to break in the F-5E.

The smallest activation of the breaks will lock the wheels and cause it to start skidding.

Thus making it difficult to control and to keep straight.

I have rudder Pedals but they are VKB pedals without Toe breaks.

And this problem forces me to pretty much 100% rely on the breaking chute.

These planes always used the chute. It's normal. It's a bit harder if you don't have pedals though as its all on it all off

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

not always. many times we dont in switzerland. they simply flare it

Again, you can't use the brakes on the BST F-5 at all without pedals and that's for sure not realistic.

Well, I have looked all over the cockpit of the F-5E for a W key, and all I can see are pedals - so how is it "for sure not realistic"

Am I missing something here? Not being able to brake at all without pedals seems to me to be pretty true to the prototype!

Well, neither F-86 nor MiG-15 had fancy anti-skid systems I presume, and we don't need analog brakes controllers to slow down / stop these without locking the wheels, so Belsimtek showed previously that such a functionality can be programmed in. Same applies to 1970's planes from other devs (MiG-21, L-39), most probably because their brakes were unable to lock the wheels IRL anyway. The question is, should the F-5E, being the plane from the same era, be capable of doing so?

Well, I have looked all over the cockpit of the F-5E for a W key, and all I can see are pedals - so how is it "for sure not realistic"

 

Am I missing something here? Not being able to brake at all without pedals seems to me to be pretty true to the prototype!

...

He means you cant effectively use the Brakes of the F-5E using the Keybinds...

And if you dont have a pedals with toe brakes then you have to use a Wheel Brake key bind...

And thats pretty hard to do atm since as soon as you touch the button the wheels lock up and you start skidding all over the place as well as not slowing down quickly enough.

Agree on a key bind solution. But I have pedals with toe brakes and still can't get slow enough fast enough. I think I must be landing a bit hot, and I can't aero brake to save my life. As soon as the back wheels touch, the front wants to slam down. Is this an indicator that my vertical descent rate is too high? Anyone got a nice vid showing some decent aero braking in the sim?

Well, I have looked all over the cockpit of the F-5E for a W key, and all I can see are pedals - so how is it "for sure not realistic"

The W key will be on your keyboard, not in the jet.

:P:cry::thumbup:

Also ...it looks like the whole fricton model of tire to tarmac is out of order (to low friction value).

The aircraft is acting like on ice, the way it slides sideways sometimes.

maybe the early locking of the wheels is due to this friction beeing programmed to low.

Just an idea

Did anyone say beta?

Also ...it looks like the whole fricton model of tire to tarmac is out of order (to low friction value).

 

The aircraft is acting like on ice, the way it slides sideways sometimes.

 

maybe the early locking of the wheels is due to this friction beeing programmed to low.

 

Just an idea

Maybe, I can remember exactly same argument for ineffective brakes in F-86 module, maybe its a BST thing.

It certainly feels like they are very ineffective, I can just barely stop before end of rwy in F-5 using brakes only on most airfields.

not always. many times we dont in switzerland. they simply flare it

I recognize that avatar, fellow arfcommer ;)

I'd really like to see someone's video of a good landing without the drag chute. I'm struggling to stop even on the longer runways, and I find that I can drive around on the grass just fine. To me, this indicates that the friction between the wheels and the ground is much less in the F5 than in other planes. Most other planes get bogged down in the grass and can't get unstuck. The F5 is practically a 4 by 4. I'm hoping that I don't just suck way too much, but I do know that I am no good at aerobraking. Either I pop off the ground again or the nosewheel just wants to stay down. Would love to see a vid of it in action so I can have a perspective on what to expect when I do things right.

...And if you dont have a pedals with toe brakes then you have to use a Wheel Brake key bind...

Sorry, but am I missing something here? If you don't have pedals with toe brakes, you can still use a rotary switch or slider on your HOTAS, can't you? :ermm:

Aerobraking is just practice, you'll get it no problems with a bit of time. There was a period of time when the air system in the Mig-21 was bugged and it prevented the chute from being used on landing. A bunch of people got real good at aerobraking because of it.

I'd really like to see someone's video of a good landing without the drag chute. I'm struggling to stop even on the longer runways, and I find that I can drive around on the grass just fine. To me, this indicates that the friction between the wheels and the ground is much less in the F5 than in other planes. Most other planes get bogged down in the grass and can't get unstuck. The F5 is practically a 4 by 4. I'm hoping that I don't just suck way too much, but I do know that I am no good at aerobraking. Either I pop off the ground again or the nosewheel just wants to stay down. Would love to see a vid of it in action so I can have a perspective on what to expect when I do things right.

The F-5 is designed to be able to drive on grass-fields

The F-5 is designed to be able to drive on grass-fields

So are the P51 and Bf109, but those get stuck on the grass (long standing issue in DCS), and the fact that the F5 does not to the same degree makes me wonder what's going on with the tire friction.

I have rudder Pedals but they are VKB pedals without Toe breaks. And this problem forces me to pretty much 100% rely on the breaking chute.

As a side note, have you tried the virtual brake axes using the VKB T-Link software? If you "pump" these axes using the assigned joystick button, it acts a bit like an anti-locking brake and makes braking the F-5 more manageable - even with the T-Rudders. :)

Well I have Saitek combat rudder pedals with toe brakes and I am still skidding all over the place. Not saying there's anything wrong here, I obviously just need some more practice ;).

So are the P51 and Bf109, but those get stuck on the grass (long standing issue in DCS), and the fact that the F5 does not to the same degree makes me wonder what's going on with the tire friction.

Getting stuck on grass, mud, sand etc. is not about friction.

It is about uneven terrain and tyres sinking into unpaved ground (a lot of weight on small surface area of soft ground).

The question is more about how terrain is modelled instead of tyre friction in those cases.

Friction is actually *lower* in unprepared runways: grass and mud are slippery, sand acts like small ball-bearings changing static/glide frictions into rolling friction and so on.

When tyre is sinking it is not about friction but closer comparison would be about soft-body collision with increasing resistance the more material there is in front (the deeper the tyre goes).

Getting stuck on grass, mud, sand etc. is not about friction.

 

It is about uneven terrain and tyres sinking into unpaved ground (a lot of weight on small surface area of soft ground).

 

The question is more about how terrain is modelled instead of tyre friction in those cases.

 

Friction is actually *lower* in unprepared runways: grass and mud are slippery, sand acts like small ball-bearings changing static/glide frictions into rolling friction and so on.

 

When tyre is sinking it is not about friction but closer comparison would be about soft-body collision with increasing resistance the more material there is in front (the deeper the tyre goes).

I've noticed that as well, most ww2 aircraft can land on mud, that being said they can land on short grass next to the runways but trying to do a short field landing anywhere out of an airfield is a bad idea as the aircraft bounce as if they were on a farmers ploughed field.