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Well...flight models.


JG3Siggi

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Either I'm in the twilight-zone, my stick and rudder hardware (TM Warthog and TM pedals) are FUBAR or there's a hidden forum here somewhere containing all the posts I've searched for on the subject. Because I cannot believe how shockingly bad the 109 and 190 FMs are. They fly like barges while the AI Spits and Mustangs are defying every aerodynamic law I *thought* I understood.

 

I've been giving the 109 a good going over the last few days and it's bad. So I thought I'd re-visit the 190, thinking that with 2.5 it would now be a matured beast while the 109 is still relatively new. Who put a giant ball-bearing where the CoG is supposed to be?! Lol. While the Mustangs are pulling turns twice as tight the 190 practically tries to spit its wings off if you dare to pull the stick back further than 50% of its available throw. And it's not scaling, the TM and in-cockpit sticks are moving 1:1.

 

Or it's not the 109 and 190 FMs that are FUBAR, it's the AI with UFO FMs?

 

Please, somebody help me out here, I thought this was supposed to be the realistic of realistic master sims? I'm not seeing it. At all.

 

TIA.

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AI doesn't use same FM's as player aircraft. On excellent they do display some slightly 'UFO'ish behaviour but they are still beatable 1 on 1.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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I've shot two down in around 20 combats and they were "average" (I checked in the editor, I was going to turn them down from "UFO" to "Novice").

 

I was hoping it was going to be something I'm doing wrong (I so want it to be that) but I've spent too many years flying every sim ever made by man (since RB and AoE etc) to give that much credence. I would have thought it's because the game is nowhere near finished but it's due for final release end of Feb, and other posts talk about other stuff (pitch trimming) that make it kind of clear this is it.

 

So it's an AI thing, which means the only way to have a realistic fight is P vs P? I'll go check it out, hopefully the network malarkey is better in 2.5, I couldn't get into it in the alpha.

 

Cheers. :)

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  • ED Team

 

So it's an AI thing, which means the only way to have a realistic fight is P vs P? I'll go check it out, hopefully the network malarkey is better in 2.5, I couldn't get into it in the alpha.

 

Cheers. :)

 

The AI are generally able to fly better than they should, but with practice you should find it pretty easy to tear up the AI, especially using the 109 and 190.

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aye, ai cheat a bit but are very much outflyable, so you must not be exploiting your aircraft's potential properly

 

I've spent too many years flying every sim ever made by man (since RB and AoE etc)

or you spent too many years reinforcing bad habits that lesser flight models let you get away with

 

time is not a qualitative guarantor of anything


Edited by probad
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Unfortunately I'm not able to find much potential. The ease and rapidity with which they contrail air from the wingtips is alarming and for not much turn out of it. I keep thinking I must have my stick at full deflection, despite repeatedly finding it's not even at 50%. Speed doesn't seem to make any difference to that. I've tried various curves in the axis fine tuning which helped a little in the 109 but nothing that makes it not a barge.

 

The problem, I guess, is it's all relative to what the AI is doing and it kills any sense of my plane being a similarly functional fighter.

 

I can get onto the MP servers ok now but they all seem to be testing and weapons aren't loaded. I've just spent ages trying to find a hidden weapons-on switch. Lol. Very odd. One between the MG ammo-counters, nada. Cannon-charging, nada (works fine offline).

 

Would I be right in thinking this is intended primarily as an MP game?

 

Thanks for not jumping down my throat guys.

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I can get onto the MP servers ok now but they all seem to be testing and weapons aren't loaded. I've just spent ages trying to find a hidden weapons-on switch. Lol. Very odd. One between the MG ammo-counters, nada. Cannon-charging, nada (works fine offline).

 

 

Safety cap away from the firing button on the joystick?

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aye, ai cheat a bit but are very much outflyable, so you must not be exploiting your aircraft's potential properly

 

 

or you spent too many years reinforcing bad habits that lesser flight models let you get away with

 

time is not a qualitative guarantor of anything

 

Well, I've learned that comparing the FMs of different sims is a bucket of worms but in my personal opinion CloD does it best. Well, actually, it's the only one that does it at all in my opinion. I'm sure the DCS guys have had a very good stab at it but I get no sense of flying a real plane once I'm out of 'Enjoy the Scenery' mode. Maybe that's a lack of audible cues (buffet, creaking etc), amongst other things.

 

I'll keep at it (online only, I'm not going to waste anymore time with the UFO AI, that will totally kill what enthusiasm I have left) and see how the planes stack up there. :)

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How long haveyou been playing DCS, its not your average sim where you can jump in and be an Instant Ace. you might need to re-learn aircraft you have flown in other sims, and really understand their strengths and weaknesses.

 

 

Unfortunately I'm not able to find much potential. The ease and rapidity with which they contrail air from the wingtips is alarming and for not much turn out of it. I keep thinking I must have my stick at full deflection, despite repeatedly finding it's not even at 50%. Speed doesn't seem to make any difference to that. I've tried various curves in the axis fine tuning which helped a little in the 109 but nothing that makes it not a barge.

 

The problem, I guess, is it's all relative to what the AI is doing and it kills any sense of my plane being a similarly functional fighter.

 

I can get onto the MP servers ok now but they all seem to be testing and weapons aren't loaded. I've just spent ages trying to find a hidden weapons-on switch. Lol. Very odd. One between the MG ammo-counters, nada. Cannon-charging, nada (works fine offline).

 

Would I be right in thinking this is intended primarily as an MP game?

 

Thanks for not jumping down my throat guys.

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How long haveyou been playing DCS, its not your average sim where you can jump in and be an Instant Ace. you might need to re-learn aircraft you have flown in other sims, and really understand their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Not very long at all. I've had it on and off the PC for years, bought the Mustang a couple of years back but rarely flew it. 190 about a year ago, ditto and the 109 a week ago. 2.5 is where I thought it would now be worth properly getting into it.

 

If the AI weren't 'cheating' the way they are I might not have suffered this bad impression. I went with the general consensus around various forums that DCS is the FM of FMs and it didn't much occur to me the AI would be so bad.

That's actually a really bad thing in terms of attracting new blood, because if they don't bother to post about it as I have they'll assume it's just a really bad player-plane FM and not come back. Something maybe for the devs to think about.

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you should post some replay tracks

i am frankly quite stumped at your descriptions of the 109's lack of performance

 

not that i don't recommend plunging straight into mp, but i think you're overemphasizing the deficiencies of the ai flight model. they're not so significant such that the fundamentals of bfm no longer apply.


Edited by probad
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you should post some replay tracks

i am frankly quite stumped at your descriptions of the 109's lack of performance

 

not that i don't recommend plunging straight into mp, but i think you're overemphasizing the deficiencies of the ai flight model. they're not so significant such that the fundamentals of bfm no longer apply.

 

Nine times out of ten, any deflection be damned, it's pilot-kill from the first burst (average AI, which is rookie as it's the lowest possible setting in the editor).

 

Never mind the total lack of any apparent energy bleed from the tightest turns, turns that have the 109 and 190 staggering like broken-legged rhinos if they try to match.

 

I'm not going to judge the game by offline play, it's obviously not a fair meter. But I can guarantee you it's done incalculable harm in regards to both experienced and first-sim players and further revenue thereof. They'll fly against the AI and drop DCS like a hot brick, whichever explanation they go with (rotten player FMs or rotten-cheat AI).

 

Want to bring in new players? Make the AI, at least on lower settings (rookie, average), reasonably easy fights. That's simple 101.

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And BFM, it doesn't apply against AI that is coded to cheat so heavily. What you're talking about there is learning the AI's simplistic routines and then exploiting them accordingly. That's not BFM or dogfighting unfortunately, that's just finding a way to beat the computer by exploiting its stupidity. It doesn't have to BFM, it just pulls insane turns that the human can't counter unless he plays game instead of sim. From my observations thus far it has three moves...hard turning climb, hard turning dive and extend away before spinning on a sixpence and coming back.

 

Try and turn with it, you stall. Try and extend, insta-kill. Try and climb, insta-kill. Dive, chased and insta-kill unless you head for the horizon with the pedal to the metal.

 

How to exploit...cut across the circle, IF you can turn into it in time, and full-deflection shoot. The AI won't do anything to avoid that because it's a three-trick pony.

 

But that's not BFM or dogfighting, that's code-bashing. Lol.

 

I have 94 gun-cam vids on youtube, from my online CloD career, if you want to see how rubbish I am. I retired un-killed from that very long run against some very good human foes. :)


Edited by JG3~Siggi
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CloD career... Riiight...

 

I remember you and your numerous FM threads on multiple forums and your banishment from them.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/app/63950/discussions/0/540744935716541317/?l=german

 

I think I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt.

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  • ED Team

 

I have 94 gun-cam vids on youtube, from my online CloD career, if you want to see how rubbish I am. I retired un-killed from that very long run against some very good human foes. :)

 

Well, welcome to the major leagues then ;)

 

Don't think the real virtual pilots that have been flying this sim for a long time are going to be much easier for you, if you have trouble with the AI, I am pretty sure the DCS Aces are going to put you through your paces, and if you are a fan of the simulation of WWII aircraft, then you should enjoy that experience as well... good luck!

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