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#61 | |
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DCS modules owned: all, regardless of the fact that some are still a WIP and don't deserve 10 bucks! When you're out of words when discussing something, let the maths talk for you. I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly as real as possible. Sincerely, your flight model fanatic! |
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#62 |
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It's not my plane or someone's plane, it's reality's plane and yes, the real data should validate each aircraft's (helo or plane) performance in DCS also, but only through thorough testing... and here the turn rates, axial and normal accelerations according to various conditions are key to know if something's not right.
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DCS modules owned: all, regardless of the fact that some are still a WIP and don't deserve 10 bucks! When you're out of words when discussing something, let the maths talk for you. I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly as real as possible. Sincerely, your flight model fanatic! |
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#63 |
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Like I said, IGNORE the F-15 and F-16 data.
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#64 | |
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Well, yes it's not 32dps as STR, I guess we both agree, but the mean dps is around 30 (12 seconds for a 360 turn). The deg/s is one thing, the AoA is another and hopefully no one mistaken dps for AoA. At least this was the flanker on which these manoeuvres at Farnborough and Woodford were done in the 1990s.
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DCS modules owned: all, regardless of the fact that some are still a WIP and don't deserve 10 bucks! When you're out of words when discussing something, let the maths talk for you. I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly as real as possible. Sincerely, your flight model fanatic! |
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#65 | ||
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And every chart I've seen for the SU-27 puts the max instantaeous rate at around 30°. |
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#66 | ||||||
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I believe that what I've said was right. After pulling the stick to reach the critical AoA while flying at the exact speed needed to reach exactly the G-limit you have rapidly achieved the highest ITR and lowest turn radius possible, not passing through any STR or anything and as your speed drops (usually the T/D ratio is well below 1 at critical alpha), so does your ITR drops. A STR is only corresponding to a constant speed and G-load. By trying to review what you've said another way: Quote:
Sorry, but wrong! How can you have the highest ITR lower than STR (even if it's the highest STR)? Quote:
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Regards!
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DCS modules owned: all, regardless of the fact that some are still a WIP and don't deserve 10 bucks! When you're out of words when discussing something, let the maths talk for you. I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly as real as possible. Sincerely, your flight model fanatic! |
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#67 |
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This track shows that our Flanker in DCS can't do the benchmark 360 turn in less than 15 seconds even after pushing the frame to 10G:
DCS Su-27's maximum turn rate capability.trk
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DCS modules owned: all, regardless of the fact that some are still a WIP and don't deserve 10 bucks! When you're out of words when discussing something, let the maths talk for you. I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly as real as possible. Sincerely, your flight model fanatic! |
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#68 |
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I just watched the video. It isn't a 12 second turn, it's more - he cuts it too early. The second turn is 13s+.
And since we are cutting up the seconds ... that entire film is a bit fishy parts of it appear sped up - where's the info on the fuel load? I mean, where does it come from? Anyway, there are the charts. It either matches the charts, or it doesn't.
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#69 |
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Did is in 13-14 sec. I could probably improve my technique a bit and slice off a half second or a whole one, but I don't feel like working on it right now.
As I thought, releasing the AoA limiter is one key, the next is to control the AoA or the turn. If you max out AoA you will never make the time.
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#70 | ||
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Max sustained turn happens at a given airspeed for the aircraft mass. Max instantaneous turn happens at a lower airspeed for the same plane with the same mass. You start the turn with a limited budget of energy, if you start at max sustained turn and carefully pull through bleeding energy to get to max instantaneous turn near the end it uses that energy budget wisely and gets you the fastest 360 turn. If you pull straight to ITR at the start you waste a lot of energy, and as you bleed airspeed in the turn you fall below the airspeed needed for a decent turn rate. It gives a very tight radius, but takes a long time to do a 360 compared to a turn where the pilot does good energy management. This, I believe, was the point Ironhand was trying to make. Quote:
I'm poking a bit of fun at you here, but in general performance charts for airshow configurations are less available or non-available compared to combat configurations. Though if you can find some airshow configuration performance charts I'm sure people would be happy to see them. Also a few other notes. When people were complaining about your fuel percentages: A fully fueled Su-27 only has about a ton less fuel than an F-15E with full internal and CFTs. So unless your F-15C was 30% internal plus one full external tank (or equivalent fuel mass internally), it wouldn't really be a good comparison. Relatively speaking, an F-15 with just 30% internal is a smaller proportion of its max takeoff weight than an Su-27 at 30% internal fuel is of its max takeoff weight. The Su-27 has a lot more internal fuel capacity for its size. Finally, 30 deg/sec is awfully high as a sustained turn rate for aircraft of that generation in a combat configuration. If you're basing on similar aircraft, a range of roughly 15 deg/sec to 20 deg/sec would be expected, with some of the more maneuverable ones getting to the mid-twenties in light configurations. The F-22 is supposed to be in the vicinity of 28 deg/sec or so. For ITR, then 30 deg/sec is well within the realm of possibility. For thrust vectoring variants it might even go into realm of 60+ deg/sec. The problem is that if you pull that sort of maneuver, unless in the process you killed your last opponent you'll be in serious trouble due to lack of airspeed after having bled so much energy that you're slower than an A-10. The maximum possible turn rate is irrelevant except maybe in airshows, the maximum practical turn rate is what matters. Looking at your initial post's charts what I see is the F-15 getting to an ITR of around 29 deg/sec, and then bleeding a huge amount of airspeed. A very reasonable result. For the Su-27 I see it pulling to 20 deg/sec, and then running into the limiter which keeps the foolishness of a full stick aft turn from hemorrhaging energy quite as badly as happened in the F-15. Using the override (wheelbrake keybind) you likely could have gained ITR and bled energy much like the F-15. Your comparison isn't a turn rate comparison or a max lift comparison, it's an energy bleed comparison, and the only reason the Eagle won is because of user error in the Su-27. If you want to see how impressive the Su-27 is at bleeding energy all you have to do is correctly perform a Pugachev's Cobra maneuver. ![]() Jokes aside, in your test you didn't correctly fly either aircraft for a maximum average turn rate and the results are about what would be expected based on publicly available information. Edit: I just looked through the slide show you linked and the performance stats it cites are: F-15 STR: 19 deg/sec ITR: 26.4 deg/sec Su-27 SK STR: 19.4 deg/sec ITR: 28 deg/sec Doesn't say for what loadouts those are though. If you're after evidence that the average turn rate for an Su-27 through a 360 deg turn is above 30 deg/sec you might not want to link sources saying that the max ITR is only 28 deg/sec. ![]()
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Callsign "Auger". It could mean to predict the future or a tool for boring large holes. I combine the two by predictably boring large holes in the ground with my plane. |
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