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Su-17M4 (SU-22) Full Fidelity Research for Dev Started


aw33com

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Today I started a research to see if I can produce full fidelity Su-17M4 [s-54, "Fitter-K"] as SU-22M4 (S-54K) export version (Circa 1983-1990). Pure love for the aircraft, and lack of RED full fidelity ground pounders made me want to produce this module. The selling point of the module would be to recreate realistic feel of the aircraft so it handles like the real SU-17 in your hands.

 

 

The goal of the initial project is to: figure out IF I CAN produce it.

 

 

What I know, or can do as of right now:

 

0. This aircraft has and would have tons of love from you guys.

 

1. I was a software architect and engineer developing trading software for banks. I have coded in most languages (except C++), and I have a very simple but practical view of software. Software dev no matter what languages/framework would not be an issue.

 

2. Tons of DCS experience and good understanding of what the flight model should feel like. This is maybe the most important thing in the project, because a module that flies correct is very rewarding.

 

3. I have time, and I'm not budget restrained, as most development would be done by me.

 

4. Chances are this module would not be fully commercialized, but rather build with/by community. I would want this module to cost only enough to cover the costs. Not interested in making money.

 

5. Access to SU-22 pilots (possible access to the aircraft). Not sure if I can legally use that.

 

 

 

What I don't know:

 

1. The documentation of SU-17 is not really public. Some things would have to be improvised, or copied from SU-25T, or other sources.

 

2. Lack of any kind of 3D modeling experience.

 

3. Not sure if DCS would allow me to use the module in the SIM. In case I would not be allowed to use it, I would still develop it for myself.

 

4. Development process of a DCS module. [This is probably easy to research]

 

5. Legal implications/approvals from Russian Federation if any.

 

 

 

What the module would be like:

 

1. The flight module would be very close to RAZBAM modules. As much as I hate their quirky bugs and behavior, I truly adore flying their aircrafts. They seem the closest to reality for me.

 

2. The module would include Air to Air, Air to Surface, Anti Radiation, laser guided, electro-optical munition, TV guided bombs, laser guided bombs, standard bombs, and pods.

 

3. Possible the module would start as a FC3 type of airplane and work it's way into full fidelity.

 

 

Let me know what you guys think, and if you have any ideas on how to produce this, please help. Feel free to post any kind of feedback, don't hold back.

 

 

Motivation Video of SU-22:

 


Edited by aw33com
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Well, I can't help with much beyond personal thoughts, and I have to say it sounds like you might be in a good position to do this project as far as planning/time/money/purpose wise. I do wish you the best of success because this would be a great addition to DCS.

160th Virtual Fighter Squadron "Dixie Vipers"



Alabama Virtual Air National Guard

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Update:

 

So I did some small research and I was able to setup my dev environment:

 

3Ds Max 2016

Photoshop 2015

Blender

Model Viewer

GIMP

Visual Studio

 

My initial poking around tells me this is doable, but it will require a proof of concept. I need to be able to setup a simple module and make it flyable. Got to be able to go through the entire process from research, design to production. Then I will know for sure if I can do this correctly and how long it will take. My worry is the time it takes and lack of documentation. I will have to reverse engineer a lot of things, which will be slow.

 

Last 2 days I started looking at the DCS structure, code, other people's work and modules.

I designed my livery and looked at the code of MIG29A. Even skins were giving me hard time as some undocumented things made me debug stuff for hours what should take a minute max. But so far I'm positive. Will do more research and do a proof of concept.

 

And those that like MIG29 here is the Polish Squadron skin I just made. It looks like the one in real life.

 

MIG-29-A-Left.png

 

MIG-29-A-Right.png

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So shameless plug.

 

If you are a good systems/FM coder there is the Bo-105 project that needs one as its dead in the water without one. And he might be able to help you on the 3d model side of this.

 

Just sayin...

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So shameless plug.

 

If you are a good systems/FM coder there is the Bo-105 project that needs one as its dead in the water without one. And he might be able to help you on the 3d model side of this.

 

Just sayin...

 

Pretty good hint!!!!!!

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Pretty good hint!!!!!!

 

Well the other reason is I'd love to see an official SU-17 module. So it would be a win-win.

 

I see alot of mods, developed and then not usable online, and then they get abandoned. I'd love to see the A4E module somehow formalized and added into DCS but the devs said its not gonna happen.

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So shameless plug.

 

If you are a good systems/FM coder there is the Bo-105 project that needs one as its dead in the water without one.

 

Fill me in on the Bo-105. Why is it dead?

 

I'm not a good system/FM coder. I don't know anything about it. I used to build complicated software in the past, so from software point of you it's not hard for me, but I have never done any Flight Models, 3D, or anything like that. Trying to do it.

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Refer to this: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3996875&postcount=1

 

The developer had to part his ways from the PolyChop-Simulations team for undisclosed reasons and formed MilTech-5, but was unable to keep programmer(s) unknown apart of the team for undisclosed reasons, and then attempted collaboration with another 3rd party, which is also undisclosed. The project is now on ice because of the lack of programmers involved in the Bo-105 project.

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I read his post and he says there is no interest in the project. Not sure what that means. No interest by clients to fly it?

 

If there is like few months of work left and Fragger could help me (explain stuff in English that is) along the way, maybe I could take it over. But only if the community is interested in it.

 

It would be a nice start for me before I go after SU-17.

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Some progress. I was able to make a flyable aircraft using someone else's EDMs (cockpit and external). I setup as much as I knew, plus I setup all graphics and sounds in DCS. So far so good. I even plugged in SU-25T cockpit in it for fun as well and flew with SU-57 flight model :)

It seems I have a good grasp of how the environment works and I can work now.

 

Now the question to you is this. What is next? I'm assuming external modeling of Su-17. This is where the steps are going to start for me. I have never done any kind of modeling. It does not scar me, but I just don't want to go in the wrong direction. Hence my questions to you:

 

 

1. If I need to build an external model now, what are the steps in doing so? I have all the software.

 

2. Is there an external model somewhere already?

 

3. How do I get the proportions and all the details? Do I scan/copy it somehow of pictures/documents?

 

4. What is the best way to develop the model? Should I build 1 part or build it in components in 3d Max and somehow marry the parts at the end?

 

5. Anything special I need for the development of the model besides 3d Max, ModelViewer, EDM plugin?

 

 

Any help would be appreciated to start me off. I'll figure out the rest.

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Some progress. I was able to make a flyable aircraft using someone else's EDMs (cockpit and external). I setup as much as I knew, plus I setup all graphics and sounds in DCS. So far so good. I even plugged in SU-25T cockpit in it for fun as well and flew with SU-57 flight model :)

It seems I have a good grasp of how the environment works and I can work now.

 

Now the question to you is this. What is next? I'm assuming external modeling of Su-17. This is where the steps are going to start for me. I have never done any kind of modeling. It does not scar me, but I just don't want to go in the wrong direction. Hence my questions to you:

 

 

1. If I need to build an external model now, what are the steps in doing so? I have all the software.

 

2. Is there an external model somewhere already?

 

3. How do I get the proportions and all the details? Do I scan/copy it somehow of pictures/documents?

 

4. What is the best way to develop the model? Should I build 1 part or build it in components in 3d Max and somehow marry the parts at the end?

 

5. Anything special I need for the development of the model besides 3d Max, ModelViewer, EDM plugin?

 

 

Any help would be appreciated to start me off. I'll figure out the rest.

 

Bless your heart. If you have to ask these questions, you're not ready to produce a full-fidelity aircraft. It takes a team of pros years to make one. I recommend you start small....a specific vehicle/ship/weapon not currently in game. Trying to go from zero to a full-up module by yourself, with zero experience, is guaranteed to end in frustration and failure. Many have tried, those that succeeded had a full team and years of development time.

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Bless your heart. If you have to ask these questions, you're not ready to produce a full-fidelity aircraft. It takes a team of pros years to make one. I recommend you start small....a specific vehicle/ship/weapon not currently in game. Trying to go from zero to a full-up module by yourself, with zero experience, is guaranteed to end in frustration and failure. Many have tried, those that succeeded had a full team and years of development time.

 

He already said he knows how to do all the coding aspects, just not the 3D modeling aspect as stated in his first post. So, if he can get that down, or at least find someone who knows how to do it, he should well be on his way to making a full module.

Modules owned:

 

FC3, M-2000C, Mig-21bis, F-5E, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, KA-50, Mi-8, F-14A&B, JF-17

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Some progress. I was able to make a flyable aircraft using someone else's EDMs (cockpit and external). I setup as much as I knew, plus I setup all graphics and sounds in DCS. So far so good. I even plugged in SU-25T cockpit in it for fun as well and flew with SU-57 flight model :)

It seems I have a good grasp of how the environment works and I can work now.

 

Also, are you the 33COM in DDCS?

Modules owned:

 

FC3, M-2000C, Mig-21bis, F-5E, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, KA-50, Mi-8, F-14A&B, JF-17

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Here's a link to the manuals for the Su-17M4 / Su-22

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247738

 

They are in Russian, not English, unfortunately. Also, they are not free :(

 

 

I knew I could count on you :)

You made my day, I'm so happy.

 

I don't have PG so I took a break from DDCS and started doing this.

Never done 3d modeling, but I already started doing a model of a simple airplane. It's coming out, but I'm obviously improvising a bit.

 

Going to Florida in 6 days. Once I come back I'll finish the simple P-47 model. If it comes out I'll post and ask for advice on how to attack Su-22 modeling.

 

Thanks for now.

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I knew I could count on you :)

You made my day, I'm so happy.

 

I don't have PG so I took a break from DDCS and started doing this.

Never done 3d modeling, but I already started doing a model of a simple airplane. It's coming out, but I'm obviously improvising a bit.

 

Going to Florida in 6 days. Once I come back I'll finish the simple P-47 model. If it comes out I'll post and ask for advice on how to attack Su-22 modeling.

 

Thanks for now.

 

Happy to help! I don't know if all the manuals are there, but it's a start

Modules owned:

 

FC3, M-2000C, Mig-21bis, F-5E, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, KA-50, Mi-8, F-14A&B, JF-17

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I read his post and he says there is no interest in the project. Not sure what that means. No interest by clients to fly it?

 

If there is like few months of work left and Fragger could help me (explain stuff in English that is) along the way, maybe I could take it over. But only if the community is interested in it.

 

It would be a nice start for me before I go after SU-17.

 

I'd say there are plenty of people in the helo community that want to see it happen. At a guess he means there might not be an interested programmer to help make it happen. It sounds like whoever he had lined up to help him had his project at the bottom of their priority list while it was at the top of his list. At least that was my take on the whole situation.

 

Honestly I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of making either a fixed wing or rotary platform for DCS especially the FM. And I bet Fragger already has documentation for the BO-105 in some language, and I bet its available somewhere in English as its a fairly common helicopter worldwide.

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Few Cool Facts about SU-17:

 

1. At Sea Level Su-17M3 IS AS FAST as SU-27 (Flanker).

2. Su-17M was the best performer of them all. Su-17M4 was slower due to fixed cone.

3. There were 24 official variants.

4. Besides the well known reconnaissance-configured Su-17 there were purposely build SEAD Configured Su-17M3s.

5. Almost all exported Su-17M4s were differently configured. It's super hard to find pictures with consistent loadouts. Each country configured their Su-17s differently. Some modified the center wing pylon to carry 2 R-60Ms on each, and some modified the most outer pylon to do that. Most customers did not carry the 2 hard points that were at the back of the fuselage.

6. I have never found a picture where Su-17 would carry Kh-29 missile on a wing pylon.

7. The aircraft has 12 hard points, but it's super hard to find them in this configuration.

8. Poland has the most advanced Su-22s with Israel and French companies updating their avionics. Those airplanes are known as Su-17M5 in many sources, but some contradict that.

Poland just announced to upgrade their fleet for 10 more years, but I'm hearing it's not happening.

9. Even though the aircraft was build to carry R-73 Archers, customers do not carry them.

10. The number of versions, and country configuration creates a lot of contradicting information online. Including NATO names themselves are confusing, not really matching Russian versions.

 

Much better research and model selection would be required to build this module.


Edited by aw33com
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