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Old 05-06-2020, 12:14 PM   #1
xvii-Dietrich
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Default No appropriate Luftwaffe airfields?

The screenshots and videos of Manston in the upcoming Channel Map show a large concrete runway (REF). This means the Channel Map is April 1944 or later.

The airfields on the Continent are announced as: Dunkirk Mardyck, Saint-Omer Longuenesse, Merville Calonne, Abbeville Drucat. (REF1, REF2)

Of these, not a single one of them was still operational in April 1944, with the last units departing as of...
  • Dunkirk Mardyck (Stab/JG 51, May 1941)
  • Saint-Omer Longuenesse (10./JG54April 1943)
  • Merville Calonne (V./KG2, August 1943)
  • Abbeville Drucat (II./JG2, December 1941)
... and the fields bombed, mined, obstructed or trenched thereafter. (REF , but if anyone has any better references/information, please reply and let me know.)




Would it be possible to:

a) find out if any appropriate Luftwaffe airfields on the Continent are planned by ED?

b) find out the region the map covers, so the community could research historically-used Luftwaffe airfields and suggest them to ED?


Thanks.
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:25 PM   #2
Pikey
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i think it was already mentioned about Manston shouldnt be paved, they are aiming for an earlier date.
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Old 05-06-2020, 07:22 PM   #3
71st_AH Rob
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Will they change Hawkinge as well? I don't understand their marketing at all, why even announce the map let alone a release date if you haven't nailed down an era? How much earlier would it be? We only have one aircraft from early 1943. The Fw-190A-8 would be next at mid-1944. The rest are late 1944 and 1945 aircraft except for the I-16 which is irrelevant to a discussion of WWII on the Channel front.
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:59 PM   #4
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Be even better if somehow the airfields and locations were linked to date ranges and changed with scenario date or perhaps locations linked to templates/compositions and dates so that the templates could be maintained and the appropriate one used for each time period. The general map environs like towns and villages (war damage and war specific structures excluded) likely didn't really change much between the late 1930s and late 1940s so pretty much from a flight simmers viewpoint as long as the airfield's appearance and location match the time period the one channel map could cover all the way from Battle of France to the end of the war.
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Old 05-07-2020, 06:50 PM   #5
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Yes, if we could have the Grass Fields concept that was promised. We would need flat areas where the airfields were and the "scenery remove objects zone" to work in MP. Then we could place an airfield like a FARP today. Instead of a place on the map being an airfield with special properties, we could have placeable runways etc or take off from grass. Vehs or buildings could have the properties for refueling or rearming.



Say a hanger that you could taxi inside or within a close radius for repairs, or a veh that was close to you that was a repair veh. Or you run out of fuel on the taxi way, jump into combined arms and drive the fuel truck over to refuel your aircraft and get back to the rearming truck.
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Old 05-08-2020, 07:50 AM   #6
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It is true that making a Channel map over a period covering the whole of the second world war is not correct if you want to focus on realism.

From 1942, English airfields changed a lot. For example, in 1940, Manston was a field with a grass runway. Hawkinge and Detling did not have a Blister hangar ...In addition, many ALGs were built.

I know that making 2 versions of the Channel map would not be profitable for ED.
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Old 05-09-2020, 04:29 AM   #7
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Hence my comment about making airfields change with time or be a composition able to be placed in the editor so you don't end up with a single map locked to a very short period. This is true of WW2 probably more than any other era as airfields upgraded within a year or two significantly as operational needs overrode cost to a very large degree or in the case of French airfields became disused and deliberately sabotaged and ALGs were temporary things that moved every few months. Ditto with Luftwaffe airfields in the last year or so. There were few permanent fields with concrete strips and dedicated buildings as these type of airfields were always targets for bombing. If anything the Luftwaffe became more mobile and expert at temporary LGs than the Allies.
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:23 AM   #8
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I'm actually looking at the possibility of adding a couple more, wish away guys if you have one you would like to see, or you are left to me and my research and preferences
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:46 AM   #9
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you would need to make the map a lot bigger to get a Luftwaffe airfield on it that was around in 1944.



Since the earliest the map could be chronologically is Apr '44 how about Schönefeld for the Luftwaffe? We do afterall have two long range escort fighters.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:56 PM   #10
xvii-Dietrich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NineLine View Post
I'm actually looking at the possibility of adding a couple more, wish away guys if you have one you would like to see, or you are left to me and my research and preferences

Adding? It should be replacing!

The four announced airfields are incorrect for the time period of the map (post April 1944). They simply were not in use.




So, here's my analysis based on the new details that are starting to come to hand now.





Analysing the screenshot we got, and overlaying it on an open-data map to get the coordinates, this gives a bounds limit of approximately:

East 3.50 deg
West 0.00 deg
South 49.67 deg
North 51.4 deg


At the time the FW 190 D-9 was introduced (Sep 1944) there was not a single operational Luftwaffe Airfield in the area of the Channel Map. This situation is even worse by the time the K4 came into service. As @71st_AH Rob suggests, the map needs to be moved considerably further east.


The problem is that with the features implemented on this map, and with the aircraft set that DCS has, this map area is simply well behind the front line by this stage of the conflict. The war had moved on... a lot.


Now, if a pre-invasion datelineis considered (and we are talking April 1944 here, when the FW 190 A-8 was just introduced, the Manston runway was complete, but before the Allies pre-invasion bombing offensive in May), then there are 5-7 possible bases.

1. Lille-Vendeville (I./JG 26)
2. Chièvres, Belgium (II./LG1, II./KG76)
3. Vitry-en-Artois (II./KG51, I./JG26)
4. Cambrai-Niergnies (II./JG26), only until April 1944
5. Poix (Staging field for fighter-bombers)
6. Rosières-en-Santerre (I./SKG 10, III./JG 26), partly operational until August
7. Montdidier (I./KG66, I./JG5), until June

Some of these are pretty much at the map edge though (esp. #2 and #7).

It is really difficult to say which would be best. They were all battered, depleted and in the process of shutting down or withdrawing. Rosières-en-Santerre is okay, given that it a) held out until August 1944 and had a mix of units. But it was not operational right at the time of D-Day. Lille-Vendeville, however, was operational, but it only had 35 aircraft (FW 190 A-6 / A-7 / A-8, incl. at its satellite fields). Vitry-en-Artois was also operational at D-Day, but it was deploying Bf 109 G-6s and only 13 of them. None of the others were operational on D-Day itself either.


To make a decision, it would be necessary to know...


a) what is the longitude/latitude bounds of the map terrain area?

b) is ED striving to make it historically appropriate for the D9 and K4, or just the A8?

c) are other LW aircraft planned that we need to take into account? FW 190 F8? Me.262 A-1? He 115 B-2?

d) what is the dateline of the map?! <-- this is important, due to the changing operational areas.


Certainly with a bit more information/constraints, it would be possible to make better suggestions, but otherwise, this is the best information to hand at the moment.



Reference and more information: http://www.stormofwar.org/phpBB3/vie...p=54756#p54756
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