[INVESTIGATING]Weapons behavior on F-5E and MiG-21Bis - ED Forums
 


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Old 02-06-2020, 04:58 PM   #1
riojax
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Exclamation [INVESTIGATING]Weapons behavior on F-5E and MiG-21Bis

I did a exhaustive investigation about some typical weapons used on both platforms.
The first topic is about the seeker tone distance on rear and front aspect.

Code:
# TONE - REAR ASPECT

	F-5E		MiG-21	
---------------------------------
R-55	1.53 nmi	2.21 nmi
R-60	1.78 nmi	2.56 nmi
R-3S	1.90 nmi	2.73 nmi
R-60M	2.41 nmi	3.46 nmi
R-13	3.56 nmi	5.18 nmi
R-13M1	3.58 nmi	5.19 nmi
R-3R	5.34 nmi 	5.34 nmi (RADAR GUIED)
RS-2US	5.34 nmi 	5.34 nmi (RADAR GUIED)

GAR-8	5800 ft 	1.38 nmi
AIM-9P	2.35 nmi	3.42 nmi
AIM-9P5	4.75 nmi	7.00 nmi
As you can see seems that the MiG-21 IR signature is almost the double than the F-5E, later will discuss a bit about this topic. Also the seeker distance seems a bit strange, look at R-13s, R-60M and AIM-9P5, something seems broken there.

Code:
# TONE - FRONT ASPECT

	F-5E		MiG-21	
---------------------------------
R-55	4200 ft		4200 ft
R-60	4400 ft		4400 ft
R-13M	4400 ft  	4400 ft  (NOT GUIDING)
R-13M1	4500 ft  	4500 ft  (NOT GUIDING)
R-3S	4800 ft  	4800 ft  (NOT GUIDING)
R-60M	1.34 nmi	1.34 nmi
R-3R	5.15 nmi 	5.15 nmi (NOT GUIDING??)
RS-2US	5.15 nmi	5.15 nmi (RADAR GUIED)

GAR-8	0.00 nmi	0.00 nmi (NO TONE)
AIM-9P	0.00 nmi	0.00 nmi (NO TONE)
AIM-9P5	1.68 nmi	2.35 nmi
Ok, this is really strange. The R-3R seems to be "rear aspect" and from front it's unguided, like a rocket but the fuse works, the R-13M, R-13M1 and R-3S works the same (but on IR).

Now this is the effective current lethal range:

Code:
# RANGE - LETHAL

R-55	1.25 nmi
RS-2US	1.42 nmi
R-60	1.78 nmi
R-3S	1.86 nmi
R-60M	1.88 nmi
R-3R	2.02 nmi
R-13	2.10 nmi
R-13M1	2.33 nmi

GAR-8	1.38 nmi
AIM-9P	2.60 nmi
AIM-9P5	2.75 nmi
The ranges, also seems to be bad, the R-60 and R-60M range is too small.
Also I tried to know the maximum range on a pure heads-on, but I was unable to launch the soviet missiles without tone, and with tone, is always into the maximum range.

Code:
# RANGE MAXIMUM

RS-2US	3.26 nmi
R-3R	5.15 nmi
AIM-9P5	8.95 nmi (NO TONE IMPACT!!!)
Yes, the AIM-9P5 will impact a hot contact on front aspect at 9nmi WITHOUT TONE.

Now we will return to the IR signature. I don't have any IR image to confirm that, but the F-5E engine exhaust temperature at 100% RPM (without AB) is 550ºC for each engine (two engines) and the MiG-21Bis at same parameters is on 630ºC I doubt a lot that this can make a huge difference in favor of F-5E.

TL;TR
Maybe the Mig-21 IR signature is too high, the R-60 and R-60M seeker too bad, the R-13s too good on rear aspect and the AIM-9P5 can hit from a god-alike distance without tone.
Attached Files
File Type: trk F-5E_AIM9P5_WLOCK.trk (141.0 KB, 26 views)
File Type: trk F-5E_AIM9P5_LOCK_F5.trk (237.1 KB, 22 views)
File Type: trk F-5E_AIM9P5_LOCK_MIG21.trk (80.4 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by riojax; 02-06-2020 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Add AIM-9P5 and F-5E tracks
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:11 AM   #2
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Very interesting investigation! I'm flying both planes for some years now but this thread has really opened my eyes!
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:41 AM   #3
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Hi

The team will review it, but it will take some time.

Thanks
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:15 AM   #4
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I can't say about MiG-21 IR signature because data files of 21 are cripted, but I can show what we have in the DCS for several aircraft.

F-5E
IR_emission_coeff = 0.4, -- without afterburner
IR_emission_coeff_ab = 2, -- with afterburner

Su-17
IR_emission_coeff = 0.69,
IR_emission_coeff_ab = 3,

MiG-29
IR_emission_coeff = 0.77,
IR_emission_coeff_ab = 4,

F-16
IR_emission_coeff = 0.6,
IR_emission_coeff_ab = 3,

Quote:
The ranges, also seems to be bad, the R-60 and R-60M range is too small.
Why do you think so?
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Last edited by Chizh; 02-07-2020 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 03:46 PM   #5
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For the R-60, the original non cooled variant someone in another thread posted these:




could be worth looking at. Additionally how are the IR signature values calculated? What do the values mean?
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Old 02-07-2020, 04:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chizh View Post
I can't say about MiG-21 IR signature because data files of 21 are cripted, but I can show what we have in the DCS for several aircraft.

Su-17
IR_emission_coeff = 0.69,
IR_emission_coeff_ab = 3,
Ok, is it possible to ask to LN about the MiG-21 values?

Also checking it, the Su-17 Lyulka AL-21F-3 engine is similar to the F-4 GE-J79 but using only one engine. Maybe this value is a bit high.


Quote:
Why do you think so?
The R-60 OGS-60TI "Komar" seeker, had a conventional single colour scanning detector with a ±12..±17° (more like to ±12°) off-boresight capability and 35°/sec tracking rate. The R-60M OGS-75 "Komar M" seeker increased the off-boresight capability to ±20° and improved tracking rate. With this the Komar M seeker is a bit better than the AIM-9L seeker and the Komar, like the AIM-9P-4.

About the rocket solid fuel and engine, I don't have good sources, for this I will only estimate some data, knowing that the R-60 mass is 43.5kg with 3kg warhead, and for the R-60M the mass was increased to 45km and 42mm larger (probably all is fuel and fuselage) using the same fuel this can be a 106.15% burning time (the warhead and fuselage mass was already taken account), this also will increase the mid speed.

With this we will suppose that the ISP is around to 120s, with a burning time of 4s and an a rate of 5kg/s this means an a thrust of 5.884kN, using a full mass of 43.5kg and a dry mass of 23kg (3 for the warhead, 2 for the seeker, 18 for the fuselage and engine) will gave us an a dV of 750m/s that plus 150m/s plane speed is the same that the alleged 2.5 mach speed for the rocket. With this is easy to say a peak speed of 750m/s plus the plane speed at 4s burn time for the R-60 and 790m/s plus the plane speed for the R-60M.

IMHO, the current R-60 and R-60M implementation is very far from this estimated data, all is similar (burn time, mass rate, etc.) but the ISP is totally off with a peak speed at 4s of 460m/s plus plane speed.

Last edited by riojax; 02-07-2020 at 04:57 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-07-2020, 05:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk2174 View Post
What do the values mean?
This is a dimensionless parameter relative to the adopted unit, the military power of the Su-27.
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Old 02-07-2020, 05:10 PM   #8
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To add to the topic: AIM-9P5 is smokeless, while the newer AIM-9L is not in DCS. Why so? Will this be corrected?
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Old 02-07-2020, 05:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riojax View Post
Ok, is it possible to ask to LN about the MiG-21 values?
Yes. You can do it.

Quote:
Also checking it, the Su-17 Lyulka AL-21F-3 engine is similar to the F-4 GE-J79 but using only one engine. Maybe this value is a bit high.
These engines are distinguished by thrust.
AL-21F has 110 kN
J79 has 80 kN

Quote:
With this the Komar M seeker is a bit better than the AIM-9L seeker and the Komar, like the AIM-9P-4.
I thing the western technology in 9L and 9P-4/5 is a qute better then soviet Komar.
Soviet missiles have always tried to catch up with the American. An exception may be the R-73, which was very good for its time.

Quote:
About the rocket solid fuel and engine, I don't have good sources, for this I will only estimate some data, knowing that the R-60 mass is 43.5kg with 3kg warhead, and for the R-60M the mass was increased to 45km and 42mm larger (probably all is fuel and fuselage) using the same fuel this can be a 106.15% burning time (the warhead and fuselage mass was already taken account), this also will increase the mid speed.

With this we will suppose that the ISP is around to 120s, with a burning time of 4s and an a rate of 5kg/s this means an a thrust of 5.884kN, using a full mass of 43.5kg and a dry mass of 23kg (3 for the warhead, 2 for the seeker, 18 for the fuselage and engine) will gave us an a dV of 750m/s that plus 150m/s plane speed is the same that the alleged 2.5 mach speed for the rocket. With this is easy to say a peak speed of 750m/s plus the plane speed at 4s burn time for the R-60 and 790m/s plus the plane speed for the R-60M.

IMHO, the current R-60 and R-60M implementation is very far from this estimated data, all is similar (burn time, mass rate, etc.) but the ISP is totally off with a peak speed at 4s of 460m/s plus plane speed.
According to our estimates, the R-60 missiles in the DCS is very close to the his real prototype. We focused on Soviet documents on flight performance.
You can compare it by yourself.

R-60 motor impulse total = 3726 kN
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	R60 ranges.JPG
Views:	91
Size:	114.6 KB
ID:	226854  
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Last edited by Chizh; 02-07-2020 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chizh View Post
Yes. You can do it.
These engines are distinguished by thrust.
AL-21F has 110 kN
J79 has 80 kN
The IR fingerprint in DCS is according to thrust?


Quote:
I thing the western technology in 9L and 9P-4/5 is a qute better then soviet Komar.
Soviet missiles have always tried to catch up with the American. An exception may be the R-73, which was very good for its time.
Ok, but the current seeker values are too low, the Komar M seeker detection is almost the half than the AIM-9P5 in DCS, and in reality is only a bit worse than the AIM-9L.

Code:
# TONE - REAR ASPECT

	F-5E		MiG-21	
---------------------------------
R-60M	2.41 nmi	3.46 nmi
AIM-9P5	4.75 nmi	7.00 nmi

Quote:
According to our estimates, the R-60 missiles in the DCS is very close to the his real prototype. We focused on Soviet documents on flight performance.
You can compare it by yourself.

R-60 motor impulse total = 3726 kN
Ok, replicating this chart in DCS it gave me these ground distances.

Code:
10km - 14.31km
5km  - 10.50km
1km  -  8.13km
This is a bit less than the attached chart. I attached tracks.
Attached Files
File Type: trk R60M_10km.trk (84.3 KB, 30 views)
File Type: trk R60M_5km.trk (102.4 KB, 28 views)
File Type: trk R60M_1km.trk (97.2 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by riojax; 02-07-2020 at 06:15 PM.
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