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Old 04-06-2018, 06:45 PM   #21
Fri13
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Originally Posted by chappingbrillopad1 View Post
I'm curious what people's opinions are on how the Hornet will stack up in the close in dogfight arena against the 2 Flanker variants and the F-15C.

In real life the Hornet has a reputation as an excellent close in dogfighter, but if the ED Hornet is bound by a highly realistic flight model compared to FC3 jets, won't the Hornet be at a disadvantage?
Su-27S is the first production model of the Su-27 family, so it will be far less useful by avionics as by flight capabilities than what even little newer versions like Su-35 (Su-27M) and Su-27SM are and even more newer ones.

But even with being just S model, it should be able to fly around F-18 in most cases. But can it keep up as long periods with older engines?

A more modern than Su-27S can do extremely fast turns and extremely tight turns (better than any western one) and should be able climb faster and all being better. But what our Su-27S can do is totally different case.

But the F-18 will do a lot to the case as it is far far better dog fighter than F-15C there is. So probably we are talking more about F-18C vs Mirage 2000C arena.

As well when the Mig-29 comes out with PFM we get to see what can be get from it. As likely it is as well as radical flight model change as Su-27S had from BFM to PFM.

But the real limitation we have now in every dog fight etc, is that we don't have good simulation of G forces generated quickly or for moments in longer time. As now it is like ironman sitting in a cockpit and sometimes getting just some fake blackout or redout instead losing quickly the colors, seeing capability see around, incapability to turn head while in pulls, no capability to move hands from HOTAS etc.

All those are far more damaging to good air combat maneuvering as virtual pilots doesn't need to care about all that almost at all. Everyone can just keep pulling G just to keep the small center visible while looking around without problems. Operate the cockpit without problems. And recover from any maneuver in a second just by doing a slight negative G move a while.

So on us it is more about the pilot who can trick the system better than the other. Avoid doing the first small mistake and then avoid from not using the moment when other does the mistake.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by OnlyforDCS View Post
Ill just add my subjective 2c here.

Once the Hornet gets ALL of its weapon functionality Im gonna have fun trolling enemy defences with the HARMs
If the SAMs would be even 20% capable what they are in reality, your HARMS would be wasted in most cases anyways.

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Im probably gonna try some weird all AIM9X loadout for another type of trolling down in the weeds with the Flankers, as well as an all AMRAAM loadout for some Link16 fun with some fellow Hornet trollers.
And if we would get a Su-27SM (2002-2003) or Su-27M (Su-35, 1986) or even Su-27SKM (1991) or we could get even the half of the weapon system features that we should have, you would be in serious problems with the Hornet.

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With all of that said, Im gonna be spending the majority of my time in the F14, because Mach2+, no fancy fbw systems, and a buddy in the back seat to guide those long range sticks in, kind of trumps the Hornet in the cool factor by a mile
Well... F-14 is the F-18 in steroids. F-14 only capable to go supersonic with its weaponload while F-18 is limited to subsonic speeds.
But likely the Phoenix missile gets little OP by its performance against maneuvering targets... And how everyone is loading them up like they would be AIM-9 kind missiles that cost nothing, doesn't weight anything, doesn't have any availability problems etc.
But as F-14 doesn't need to fear any real missile threats that redforces would have, it is easy to dominate the skies then...
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:43 PM   #23
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Yeah well the problem with SAMs is you can steer clear of them so that diminishes their effectiveness and trolling factor. You can also make them run out of missiles with relative safety.

At some point the hornet will also have the SLAM-ER which will be excellent for taking down radars.
Some radars only. That can't be steered nor turned off in time. But in case of DCS, yes every radar as there is no AI logic to do correct counter-ARM actions.

Just like we have idiotic SAM crews, where they launch missile as soon as possible, without sneak attack tactics whenever possible, without networking, without even basic trapment tactics and ARM lures.

If SAM crews and systems would be even half realistic, you would very much need to work hard to get SAM sites off.

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If we ever got a MIG31 (when hell freezes over) we would truly have a true redfor powerhouse. Maybe we could settle with an updated SU-27...
Why Mig-31? It is a interceptor that ain't agile. Meant to be fast, meant to cover large vast areas and launch missiles to multiple non-maneuvering targets from long ranges sneakily and then turn and burn away for a next wing to take part.

If we could get a Nordic Countries northern part and part of northern Russia. We would really see the need for Mig-31 and see the benefits of Su-27.

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F-18C would as well fit to that map totally great as Finland operates with F/A-18C and we could use Viggen as well there and if we in future see a F-16... We would get Norway to use it. And if we get ever a Grippen, then Sweden would be operator for that (and likely Finland as well for future missions).
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:48 PM   #24
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True the MiG-31 can't maneuver worth anything, but it could just provide BVR cover for MiG-29Ss or Su-27Ss that could obliterate the enemy in WVR. Besides, it's just fun to shoot at enemies before they can shoot at you, I once used a mod that allowed me to use the R-24T, R-33, R-40T, and R-77 on the Su-27, and those+R-60M on Su-33 (so, I know what the R-33 is like).
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Old 04-07-2018, 02:50 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
And if we would get a Su-27SM (2002-2003) or Su-27M (Su-35, 1986) or even Su-27SKM (1991) or we could get even the half of the weapon system features that we should have, you would be in serious problems with the Hornet...
Not serious problems, just facing a very worthy opponent! ;-)

I personally would love to see a full fidelity Su27SM, Su30 or Mig29M/K in the game. It would really give the red team some much needed love in the mid-2000s timeframe that DCS is set in.

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Old 04-07-2018, 08:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by FlankerMan View Post
True the MiG-31 can't maneuver worth anything, but it could just provide BVR cover for MiG-29Ss or Su-27Ss that could obliterate the enemy in WVR. Besides, it's just fun to shoot at enemies before they can shoot at you, I once used a mod that allowed me to use the R-24T, R-33, R-40T, and R-77 on the Su-27, and those+R-60M on Su-33 (so, I know what the R-33 is like).
Sure the Mig-31 can operate like mini-AWACS for other flights, but so does Su-27 as well.
Many tactics can't be used now with Su-27 as weapons systems are not modeled, that would give the edge.

That changes even more now when F-18C should get far better radar features and capabilities that others modeling lacks. But if it comes as well more realistic radar and targeting system simulations, we will see more WVR than BVR combat.



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Old 04-07-2018, 08:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Many tactics can't be used now with Su-27 as weapons systems are not modeled, that would give the edge.
Which ones do you mean?

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Old 04-07-2018, 10:11 AM   #28
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Which ones do you mean?
Many datalink ones. Target sharing between flight, target generations via GCI etc. We have just basic datalink capability.

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Old 04-07-2018, 12:37 PM   #29
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Even the Ability of the SU27SM to guide 2 SARH missiles simultaneously would be a game changer.
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Old 04-07-2018, 02:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
Many datalink ones. Target sharing between flight, target generations via GCI etc. We have just basic datalink capability.
Just keep in mind that FC3 F-15C is missing a lot of features that will be coming with DCS Hornet:
- JHMCS
- AIM-9X
- L16 datalink

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