BFM : stuck in endless vertical nose-to-tail

Hi,

First post on the forum for me ! I got back to sim and especially DCS a few weeks ago. Coincidentally, I made this decision a few weeks before the lockdowns. So I was really pleased with the trials, sales and everything ! Thanks E.D. :thumbup:

I say got back, because I did a lot of combat sims when I was younger : Jane's F-15, Graphsim F/A-18, Falcon 4, ...

Back then I was interested in systems, radar modes, LGBs, etc... now I am in love with dogfights and carrier recovery ... for now ... there is so much in DCS !

I am still combing the forums, and have yet to read all the history about the F-5E. This question is raised by difficulties playing the F-5E BFM Campaign, but it could apply to other aircrafts.

I quite often end up stuck in vertical nose-to-tail fights (2-circle if I am right ?). Purely vertical. Roller-coasters.

I am on the offensive side, close to the bandit, just trying to get enough lead and closure to shoot. And it is a never-ending series of turns up and down.

I understood that to increase closure I need to use lead-pursuit. Which I try to do when both going down to the ground. But this increases angle-off and when the opponent gets his nose to the sky, I end up really lagging and therefore losing all the closure I could get before.

It's like the range keeps oscillating : increase/decrease. And when it's the lowest, of course I am not in lead pursuit for a decent shoot at that time.

Is it specific to the F-5E ? I am watching many videos (Growling Sidewinder and other, thanks !). Is it time to change the geometry of the fight in this situation ?

Hope it makes sense the way I describe it.

With the F/A-18 or M2000 I guess I never end up in this situation because I can pull so much more AoA to increase lead !

Thanks for any ideas !

Pierre

Forgot to add : this is same aircraft fight. F-5e v F-5e.

And whenever I apply enough lead, the bandit is hidden just below my HUD (the round thing on top of the recorder below the hud).

If the AI sees that you have less speed than him, he will do a loop. Over and over and over again.

Try to see the pattern and then counter it some other way.

I always seem to end up in endless loops with the AI, but usually I manage to have enough energy to follow them, and if not I catch them on the way down by going horizontal.

As for the F-5E-3 vs F-5E-3 - don't do it, I did an instant action mission and the AI F-5E-3 manages to zoom climb to 60000 feet, and even when its speed drops below 100 KIAS, still has optimum nose authority and turn rate.

The AI is not burdened with minor inconveniences like physical laws or sensor failures. She always knows where you are, she always has more energy, she's always got more nose authority...it's a little like being married with explosive ordinance added for excitement.

It's getting better, and ED is working on it off and on.

AI ？ that`s typical.

What A/C are you fighting? Bigger jets let them get behind you, draw them into scissors and force an over shoot. Smaller jets you need to be aggressive on the merge, don't let them outrun you on the first turn and try to keep your speed around 350-400kts and keep the fight flat if you can. When the AI pulls vertical, don't chase it. Come up a bit then turn parallel to the horizon. Lag turns with less elevation and you will keep your speed up and meet them on the down turn.

You need to distort the turning circles by accelerating then pulling repeatedly at times instead of a steady g rate. Since the AI does absolutely nothing to react you can missalign the turn circles to give you an edge at certain time windows.

Put into practical example, make sure to have enough energy banked at the bottom of the loop, you can even relax the stick a bit and catch the guy in his nose high phase. He'll be slow and a fairly easy target.

Haven't tried this in the F-5 specifically but works in all 4 gen against 4 gen AI.

The AI is not burdened with minor inconveniences like physical laws or sensor failures. She always knows where you are, she always has more energy, she's always got more nose authority...it's a little like being married with explosive ordinance added for excitement.

 

 

 

It's getting better, and ED is working on it off and on.

More than a decade has passed, so I guess its more off than on. :music_whistling:

Thanks a lot for the ideas. Glad to see this partially comes from the AI being good at managing energy. It looks like the AI really loves going vertical after the merge. This leaves me a bit frustrated since I first would like to put in practice what I read and hear about 1-circle and 2-circle and lead- vs rate-fighters. And I thought that first training horizontally (with just a few high/low yoyos if needed here and there) was a good starting point to learn before adding all the complexity of vertical fight dynamics.

When in vertical loops I try as much as possible during the dive phase to ease the stick to gain maximum acceleration (not taking too much lag though). But the bottom of the dive is the problem as the opponent quickly pulls up. Maybe I should try a quick snapshot at that point. And then it looks like, when we are both climbing again, I deplete my energy faster than him.

So I am always behind his 3-9 line, but rarely in range.

Next time, I will try to force him out of the vertical as suggested to see.

And I will analyse a bit more in Tacview maybe to understand what's going on ! That should make me get forward as well.

I seem to recall someone saying you need to put their skill level on, I think it was, Average, not Excellent. Reduces the Ferris Wheel tactic. My experience is that this does work/help, though it also makes them too easy to kill. So I do 1 V 2 with the AI, though they ain't real good a 'teamwork'. Probably why I stick to honing my manual bombing skills instead.

Average or Good is reasonable, at least in terms of the AI defying the laws of physics. They are still dumb as hell though.

Thanks a lot for the ideas. Glad to see this partially comes from the AI being good at managing energy.

It's not so much that they're good at managing energy; it's that energy is not really a factor in how they're allowed to fly. Only under extreme circumstances and in edge cases that they generally won't be in will it make any difference, whereas for you as a player, it matters all the time.

Quick feedback from my last attempts :

Most of the time, I was playing with the AI level 'High'.

My base case scenario is a mission I created in the editor as follows :

head-to-head with another F-5E, 24k feet, in Nevada above the 'round green crops' (kind of replicating the first engagement in a mission of the BFM campaign without all the nav involved)

With the 'High' level, I struggle with this vertical never-ending fight. It indeed looks like physics do not exist for the AI. I am bleeding energy going up, and the opponent is like in space, no stall, nothing, repeating the same circle ever and ever.

I tried with the level 'Good' and this is much better. The AI still goes vertical right after the merge, but for just one or two circles, and then has to escape at low speed at some point. This is when I get him.

I created variations of this mission, with different planes. The attempt with the F14 was really interesting : here the trick is to try and balance not going too fast (with the AB on the plane easily overshoots the F-5), and at the same time not stalling or spinning (buffeting comes really quick ... one must be really easy with the stick... a good reminder). Overall a much easier fight in any case.

I should probably play dogfights online for a better experience. Anyone has a server recommendation for good dogfight training ? Thanks.