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On Pull-Up, VV Climbs, but A/G Gen Reticle Lags


Captain Orso

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While doing some testing/training I ran across something I don't understand. I'm testing/training with the GUA-12.

 

While very low and targeting tanks I started to pull up to avoid hitting trees. What I notices is that the VV and general view climbs immediately with the control stick movement, but the gun reticle hangs on the target until the VV gets a certain height above the reticle, which then also starts to raise at the same speed.

 

 

How can this be?

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

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System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I wish that clip went on a little longer to see the rise of that reticle continue.

 

This video shows a Gr.7 (I believe) on a rocket pass in a ~30° dive. Although it isn't a gun reticle, they're both ballistic munitions and calculated similarly. He pulls up and the pipper and flight path indicator initially rise at a similar pace but separate as the pilot nears the horizon at a relatively constant 3.5G pull. My thought is calculated drop due to gravity, though that's purely speculation.

 

Time at 1:18:

 


Edited by Britchot

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The reticle is always above the vv, in the dive, which means you will fly straight into the ground when on target, but the VV is accurate and so is the pipper.

Also the FPM (VV), should go out when it touches the reticle.

 

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Edited by Holbeach

I7 2600K @ 3.8, CoolerMaster 212X, EVGA GTX 1070 8gb. RAM 16gb Corsair, 1kw PSU. 2 x WD SSD. 1 x Samsung M2 NVMe. 3 x HDD. Saitek X-52. Saitek Pro Flight pedals. CH Flight Sim yoke. TrackIR 5. Win 10 Pro. IIyama 1080p. MSAA x 2, SSAA x 1.5. Settings High. Harrier/Spitfire/Beaufighter/The Channel, fanboy..





..

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I wish that clip went on a little longer to see the rise of that reticle continue.

 

This video shows a Gr.7 (I believe) on a rocket pass in a ~30° dive. Although it isn't a gun reticle, they're both ballistic munitions and calculated similarly. He pulls up and the pipper and flight path indicator initially rise at a similar pace but separate as the pilot nears the horizon at a relatively constant 3.5G pull. My thought is calculated drop due to gravity, though that's purely speculation.

 

Time at 1:18:

 

 

Actually, right after that I pushed the nose down again and then had to pull up again right after that too ofc. While pulling up and away the reticle -- once it starts to move stays at the same distance from the VV until both are above the horizon. Then the reticle drops a little bit lower and stays put.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I´m more concerned about the gun reticle being above the FPM.

 

Good point.

 

Above the Feet Per Minute? :huh: What?

 

 

EDIT:

 

FPM = Flight Path Marker! *doh* :doh:

 

In the NATOPS, which is where we mainly learn the Harrier, it's called the Velocity Vector.

 

Yes, apparently DCS does not allow for setting up the boresigntin of the gun to other than the "waterline" of the airframe, which since the Harrier flys with a nose-up attitude practically always, the reticle is pointing above the VV (FPM), which makes using guns and rockets a kind of adventure. It certainly requires getting on-target very quickly.


Edited by Captain Orso
New information.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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The reticle is always above the vv, in the dive, which means you will fly straight into the ground when on target.

 

 

..

 

That's exactly my issue. I'm trying to figure out the best method to approach and engage a gun-target. But since the boresighting point is above the VV, you have to push the nose into the ground to put the reticle on-target.

 

In A2A it will be an advantage, but I don't think that qualifies the Harrier to be an excellent dogfighter.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I've been trying to find out if this is correct behaviour for some time, because it doesn't look like the view in "A Manual".

A rather uncomfortable situation in a shallow dive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

I7 2600K @ 3.8, CoolerMaster 212X, EVGA GTX 1070 8gb. RAM 16gb Corsair, 1kw PSU. 2 x WD SSD. 1 x Samsung M2 NVMe. 3 x HDD. Saitek X-52. Saitek Pro Flight pedals. CH Flight Sim yoke. TrackIR 5. Win 10 Pro. IIyama 1080p. MSAA x 2, SSAA x 1.5. Settings High. Harrier/Spitfire/Beaufighter/The Channel, fanboy..





..

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The gun pipper being above the velocity vector is wrong. Razbam has pointed this out themselves long ago. But the problem is/was at the ED side. Apparently they can't set the angle of a gunpod relative to the waterline of the aircraft. Since the Harrier points upwards a fair bit, you end up with the gun shooting quite high. Good for dogfights, but pucker-factor inducing for strafing

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It really sounds more and more like the issues not getting fixed in the Harrier are to a great extent issues with DCS being broken and something we are actually waiting for ED to fix (gun aiming angle, laser targeting range in the Litening II pod, ALL the issues with carrier operations, AI aircraft landing) all have their source indicated with ED. And RAZBAM is stuck between a rock and a hard-place, because they can't fix something broken by ED and I'm sure the NDA's forbid them to say anything about the actual source of the issue, bc it would reveal internal secrets. I've been bound by enough NDA's by software houses to know there is absolutely NOTHING allowed to be said about internal issues, unless the NDA-holder has given a go-ahead. You're not even allowed if the NDA-holder has already started speaking about an issue publicly. You are still bound by the NDA.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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The gun pipper being above the velocity vector is wrong. Razbam has pointed this out themselves long ago. But the problem is/was at the ED side. Apparently they can't set the angle of a gunpod relative to the waterline of the aircraft. Since the Harrier points upwards a fair bit, you end up with the gun shooting quite high. Good for dogfights, but pucker-factor inducing for strafing

 

 

Well that explains it all and why I couldn't replicate RL profiles correctly.

This doesn't bode well, as a similar situation occured with the Hawk, when the gun went out of alignment years ago after an update. It was never fixed.

 

 

Note: The gun boresight, should be 2 deg. below the waterline.

 

 

..


Edited by Holbeach

I7 2600K @ 3.8, CoolerMaster 212X, EVGA GTX 1070 8gb. RAM 16gb Corsair, 1kw PSU. 2 x WD SSD. 1 x Samsung M2 NVMe. 3 x HDD. Saitek X-52. Saitek Pro Flight pedals. CH Flight Sim yoke. TrackIR 5. Win 10 Pro. IIyama 1080p. MSAA x 2, SSAA x 1.5. Settings High. Harrier/Spitfire/Beaufighter/The Channel, fanboy..





..

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After stalking through Zeus67s profile here looking for where it was posted, I found it... on reddit... by CptSmiley. Anyhow, DECOY, is it possible to get an update on this? The post was made over a year ago and the gun pod is a very integral part of the Harrier.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't know if this is useful, but way back in 1984, I had a sim for the old Atari ST called F15 Strike Eagle.

 

 

I clearly remember the manual saying to approach the target area at low level, then pull up & roll inverted to acquire the target you were after, then pull back to bring the nose onto the target.

 

I found that a really handy way of dealing with the issue of having the nose of the aircraft in the way of the view of the target, and creating only positive G's all the way.

 

Then you'd roll the right way up & release your bombs, fire cannon or whatever.

 

With this issue of the gun reticle being above the FPM, this may be a practical way of approaching & firing on targets in the Harrier too - at least in DCS if not in real life - just delaying the roll from inverted to right way up until the target's a hole in the ground.

 

I think I know what I'll be doing this weekend...

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