Can someone help.me.settle.the burner on takeoff debate

I have someone who insists f14s always took off on burner besides a brief periodnin 96 when I pointed him.to a link here.

Can I please get proof the B burner damaged the cat mechanism.and or any info on burner not being allowed on take off.

And he does have ALOT of pics of burner on take off :/

The A model used afterburner. For the GE powered 'Cats, it was mil power.

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Most pictures I've seen of Tomcats taking off in burner were -A models. Due to the low TTW ratio of the TF-30s stage 3 burners were required to safely get off the deck. The F110's though had something like 30,000lbs of thrust in full burner individually so 60k pounds of thrust between the two. Here are screenshots from the -D NATOPS and from Google. The -B and -D had the same engines and so the same rules apply.

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I have someone who insists f14s always took off on burner besides a brief periodnin 96 when I pointed him.to a link here.

Can I please get proof the B burner damaged the cat mechanism.and or any info on burner not being allowed on take off.

And he does have ALOT of pics of burner on take off :/

According to the 2001 F-14B NATOPS (Change 1) prohibited maneuvers in Chapter 4, page 4-16 includes the prohibition of either dual-engine or single-engine afterburner takeoffs, waveoffs, bolters or catapult launches. Later, in Chapter 7, the highest setting allowed for afterburner takeoffs is single-engine, minimum afterburner takeoffs, waveoffs, bolters, or catapult launches. The reason provided in chapter 11 is because of controllability in the event of engine failure during takeoff.

So, NATOPS says don't do it. That doesn't mean it was never done, and if memory serves, there's at least one video of an F-14B doing just that at an airshow, but I'd have to go digging to find it. The plane lifts off ridiculously fast and as it passes the cameraman, the blowers are clearly already engaged to maximum. Another prohibition was the dump and burn, yet pictures exist of F-14s doing dump and burns, and I know from pilot interviews that it was done, even if it was against the rules. Similar with the 6.5g official symmetrical limit being thrown out the window with enough consistency that I truly wonder if there was a single Tomcat airframe in the Navy that didn't do multiple "excursions" to or beyond 9g.

Hope that helps.

Another consideration is over-speeding the landing gear. If you're lightly loaded, then a full burn takeoff will have you over 250 kts REALLY quickly, faster than you can get the gear in... unless you go for a really fast climb... not exactly the most efficient thing in the world.

Max gear speed is 275. Its the flaps you should worry about (225)

Thanks gentleman.

I put some of your replies etc and linked this thread. Quora debate. Appreciate it.

Here we go... 14a was allowed to do burner TO whereas the 14b/d we're prohibited to do so. Why?

Due to the engine spacing of 9 1/2 ft apart the yaw rates induce when an afterburner is loss of one engines creates such yaw authority and roll that the rudder and possibly roll control input (stabs n spoilers) lack authority at very low speeds. Check your charts.

Besides, the GE engines in Mil power was equivalent to TF 30 Stage 1 - 3 afterburner. I don't remember specifically which stage of afterburner as it's been over 15 years or so working on the f-14 simulator.

The f-14b demonstration you saw I believe was at NTU or at Wilkes Barres where Snodgrass used the afterburner prematurely before liftoff and he rolled out to the left with gears down. This was the grummans Warbird be heritage flight. Snodgrass Slough the f-14 really slow and did Snow maneuverability as he stayed in formation with the old Grumman world war II warbird.

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Here we go... 14a was allowed to do burner TO whereas the 14b/d we're prohibited to do so. Why?

 

Due to the engine spacing of 9 1/2 ft apart the yaw rates induce when an afterburner is loss of one engines creates such yaw authority and roll that the rudder and possibly roll control input (stabs n spoilers) lack authority at very low speeds. Check your charts.

 

Besides, the GE engines in Mil power was equivalent to TF 30 Stage 1 - 3 afterburner. I don't remember specifically which stage of afterburner as it's been over 15 years or so working on the f-14 simulator.

 

 

The f-14b demonstration you saw I believe was at NTU or at Wilkes Barres where Snodgrass used the afterburner prematurely before liftoff and he rolled out to the left with gears down. This was the grummans Warbird be heritage flight. Snodgrass Slough the f-14 really slow and did Snow maneuverability as he stayed in formation with the old Grumman world war II warbird.

 

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Thanks sir

First you have me confused. Im a dependent and indeed was on the enterprise at sea for a day amd saw f14s do a sonic boom and a6s bomb dummy targets. But this question was a debate with an admittedly well informed but hard headed and sensitive individual on quora who insisted F14s used AB all the time for take offs always except a few weeks in 96.

I said he admittedly does have a lot of pix of all models in different years, liveries and squadrons, that are real in burner. However I know theres F14 drivers here and its been told to me endlessly no burner was used on T/O. I tried pointinf this out to him and he was.. just not having it. Damn well near got insulting frankly. I wanted concrete proof or something. A lot here has helped. No response ans I directed him here but then again he had some smartassed answer about the CNO order in 96 forbidding AB except operational emergency after 4 were lost in 3 weeks

Thanks sir

 

First you have me confused. Im a dependent and indeed was on the enterprise at sea for a day amd saw f14s do a sonic boom and a6s bomb dummy targets. But this question was a debate with an admittedly well informed but hard headed and sensitive individual on quora who insisted F14s used AB all the time for take offs always except a few weeks in 96.

 

I said he admittedly does have a lot of pix of all models in different years, liveries and squadrons, that are real in burner. However I know theres F14 drivers here and its been told to me endlessly no burner was used on T/O. I tried pointinf this out to him and he was.. just not having it. Damn well near got insulting frankly. I wanted concrete proof or something. A lot here has helped. No response ans I directed him here but then again he had some smartassed answer about the CNO order in 96 forbidding AB except operational emergency after 4 were lost in 3 weeks

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Max gear speed is 275. Its the flaps you should worry about (225)

the flaps retract way faster than gear comes up... you can easily overspeed the gear on a full AB takeoff in the 14B...

CWLemoine talks about it in his discussion of the F-22 takeoff routines as they relate to a recent belly landing incident.

Simply tell him this: "I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong."

Looks like it.

Simply tell him this: "I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong."

Gahahaha i like you

Not that a Carrier can't be heard by submarines for some distance anyway when cats (shuttle) hit the water brake etc (!) but I'm sure that NOT using afterburner significantly reduced the acoustic signature transmitted down thru' the ship into the water - so whether a win/win consequence or actually one of the User Requirements by the Navy??????

You do not engage AB off the block, you wait will midstroke then stage 5

That way you get clean and to 300 in less time and looks cool

Sir pls read the actual question

Our A Cats on the America used burner for launch. The best thing on the deck at night was the Tomcat launching. Soft whistle of the intakes as she made her way to cats in the soft glow of Island lights and the sea of red tipped flashlights. The night was broken and the deck began to rumble as the mighty Tomcat began to roar. Her lights popped on and in an instant she was gone........

And again cool.... but i specifically asked for references and proof either way...

This is straight From the BIBLE for F-14B/D I am not sure About the operational limits of the catapults on any carrier but what is written below for the Tomcat is taken as the gospel.

4. Prohibited Maneuvers. The following

additional maneuvers are prohibited:

1. Intentional spins.

2. During afterburner operations:

a. Sustained 0 to – 0.5g flight.

b. Flight from – 0.5g to – 2.4g’s for more than 10

seconds.

3. At MIL power or less, zero or negative-g flight for

more than 20 seconds.

4. AIM-9 launch with landing flaps and slats

extended.

5. Fuel dumping with AB operating or with speedbrakes extended.

6. Dual-engine afterburner takeoffs, waveoffs, bolters or catapult launches.

7. Single-engine maximum afterburner takeoffs,

waveoffs, bolters, or catapult launches.

8. Rolling maneuvers with blank angle changes in

excess of 360!.

7. Afterburner Takeoff. Afterburner takeoffs are limited to single-engine minimum afterburner

takeoffs, waveoffs, bolters, or catapult launches. Dual

engine afterburner and single-engine maximum afterburner takeoffs, waveoffs, bolters, or catapult launches

are prohibited.

11 Takeoff Configuration. Afterburner

takeoffs are prohibited specifically because of controllability concerns in the event of engine failure during

takeoff. An engine failure during a MIL power takeoff

with the F110 engine will produce significant thrust

asymmetry.

pretty sure 2001 natops posts aren't allowed here, so if that post gets deleted, natops basically says that because engine failure at full AB can cause severe yaw induction, shortly followed by rolling in direction of the failed engine, so for safety reasons the 14 takes off at mil power.

you can read it yourself, but i wont post a link (i'm already at 90% warning)

:)

And again cool.... but i specifically asked for references and proof either way...

I have a drivers ed manual that says “drive the speed limit “ yet can provide you with literally thousands of pictures that show people not following that rule.

I believe several people have shown you the “proof” that you somehow need, yet many will show you that there are hundreds of examples of that not happening.

You keep asking for proof, as have others in similar threads and are obviously not happy with the answer. I would suggest that you will have to find something else to be “right “ about if it will make you and your friends get along better....

pretty sure 2001 natops posts aren't allowed here, so if that post gets deleted, natops basically says that because engine failure at full AB can cause severe yaw induction, shortly followed by rolling in direction of the failed engine, so for safety reasons the 14 takes off at mil power.

 

 

you can read it yourself, but i wont post a link (i'm already at 90% warning)

 

:)

LOL just quoting....... No links :)

I have a drivers ed manual that says “drive the speed limit “ yet can provide you with literally thousands of pictures that show people not following that rule.

I believe several people have shown you the “proof” that you somehow need, yet many will show you that there are hundreds of examples of that not happening.

You keep asking for proof, as have others in similar threads and are obviously not happy with the answer. I would suggest that you will have to find something else to be “right “ about if it will make you and your friends get along better....

No. The person in question im debating with has hundreds of pics at diff times and places and bu nos. usn air craft are a little different than the car analogy - the flights are tracked much more closely.

And no "everytime" people provide me proof I dont say i want more or am umhappy - I am saying that "your word" with all due respect means absolutely nothing to me or internet a hole 1 and it shouldnt - there should be a academic standard in such a debate. Hence in my OP I asked not just for "yes or no" but supporting evidence. Links, books and page numbers, interviews. You know citations?

LOL just quoting....... No links :)

Oh ffs if people are scared can tbey just do me a solid and pm me it