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Old 08-26-2020, 07:59 AM   #191
QuiGon
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Tornado ECR, it would be the most interesting to play, the "Wild Weasel" role is very much forgotten in DCS...
It would absolutly not be interesting to play the Tornado ECR in DCS, as DCS is missing the required Electronic Warfare simulation to make any real use of the Tornado ECR. If it's just about throwing HARMs around, then you can do that with the normal Tornado IDS just fine.
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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

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Old 08-26-2020, 08:19 AM   #192
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Tornado ECR, it would be the most interesting to play, the "Wild Weasel" role is very much forgotten in DCS...

While it may be interesting at first look, since the EW environment is not simulated at all on DCS, it doesn't make much sense in developing this version.
You can already provide SEAD with F/A-18 and eventually with F-16...
It make much more sense and frankly will be more exciting going for "deep" strikes, at night, low level, full throttle, on TFR...(see, the IDS/GR version).

Its almost like wishing for a P3 Orion when there's no sub's in the game.

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Old 08-26-2020, 08:34 AM   #193
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You can already provide SEAD with F/A-18 and eventually with F-16...
It make much more sense and frankly will be more exciting going for "deep" strikes, at night, low level, full throttle, on TFR...(see, the IDS/GR version).
Exactly, especially as the IDS/GR can employ HARM and ALARM as well. Many people seem to think that only the ECR can do that, which is wrong.
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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

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Old 08-26-2020, 08:39 PM   #194
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Exactly, especially as the IDS/GR can employ HARM and ALARM as well. Many people seem to think that only the ECR can do that, which is wrong.

Yep. I'm not sure how the German Air Force does it, but in Italy the one wing dedicated to SEAD/EW flies both the ECR and IDS.
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Old 08-27-2020, 06:45 AM   #195
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Yep. I'm not sure how the German Air Force does it, but in Italy the one wing dedicated to SEAD/EW flies both the ECR and IDS.
Not really the case here. In the Luftwaffe the SEAD task is exclusive to the Tornado ECR AFAIK. The Navy on the other hand employed HARMs from the IDS variant, as it only flew the IDS.
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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

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Old 08-31-2020, 05:03 AM   #196
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Tornado.... are there yet ?


IF HB decide to develop it for DCS I say your at least 1/2 years out.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:10 AM   #197
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Tornado.... are there yet ?


IF HB decide to develop it for DCS I say your at least 1/2 years out.
More like 2-3 years. At least.
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Old 09-12-2020, 05:44 PM   #198
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More like 2-3 years. At least.
That's handy, 'cos a home cockpit isn't gonna be a five minute job...




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Old 09-12-2020, 06:09 PM   #199
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I would say not less than 5 years

I'm not joking, i'm serious
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Old 09-15-2020, 08:34 AM   #200
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Hi guys, a lot of conversation here, very nice.
Was off for a couple of weeks, business at the former JaBoG 33... Tornado wing

So I went through the couple of last pages and have to answer a few questions and correct some things:

1. ASSTA 2 was never a thing with the German Air Force. Airbus (had some other name back then) did develop it, but it became a part of ASSTA 3.
In ASSTA 3 however, only the CRPMD (Combine Radar and Projected Map Display - "The round center thing in the back seat") and the radar/map projector in the front seat got replaced bei MFCDs.
The TV/TABs remained (there are still some in the GAF) and get replaced for MFCDs with ASSTA 4.1
There happend other things, but just that you know how the cockpit changed visually.
The old E-scope got changed as well as far as I know.

About the MFCDs. They are nice, of course. But actually the old CRPMD had a way better resolution for the GMR (ground mapping radar).
I heard a bunch of back seaters saying that for ground radar usage the new birds are actually waste/rubbish.

Remember that for my resume at the end...


2. About Night-Cap:
first I have to complete the equipment list, it has a Doppler radar for height

The Tornado was very much night capable out of the box. More than other birds at that time, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions being A-6 and/or F-111.

NVG was not a thing back then, but I read that the British had field/combat modified jets ('Einsatzsofortbeschaffung' in german) in the early/mid 1990s for their combat operations. Have to check my GR.1 book.


3. About the British variants:
The GR.1A had NO canons. Both sides were fitted with SLIR (side looking infra red). Same for the GR.4A.
It was the GR.4 that had only one. The standard GR.1 (and GR.1B) had two canons.

The GR.1B is a standard GR.1 which is wired for the Sea Eagle. It's really not a different variant.
So Sea Eagle should be thing for DCS GR.1.

Integrated FLIR came with the GR.4, LRMTS was a thing with the GR.1 and was very useful.

Back in the cold war days, the main problem was to get a height fix, to have your bombs actually hit. Every WSO from pre GPS days tells that.
LRMTS made it way easier to get a good range and height fix on the target, for me big reason for GR.1 over the German IDS.


4. About the weapons:
The Germans use the IRIS-T but only since about 10-15 years, as the British used ASRAAM on their Tornados later on as well.
Early 2000 and earlier only AIM-9s were a thing, for all nations.

MW-1 and JP-233 were mentioned. Which one is better? I dont know.
Essentially, the JP-233 always carried 2 types of submuntion.
MW-1 could be fitted with single types but also different types at the same time.
I heard that the MW-1 had more punch, but it were German pilots who said that...

In the early 90s the British used the JP233 for runway denial in Iraq, it worked, but it was only useful for a couple of days.
Iraqi airfields were very huge/wide and those mines which were dispensed were not very useful.
I heard the would have liked to be able to use the MW-1 and not use mines but instead more denial bomblets.

What really stands out for me personally is ALARM, which to my knowledge was scrapped with the introduction of the GR.4.
This ARM is pretty versatile (more than other ARMs) and could be loaded to complement other loads. (On the stubs for example)
For me it is kind of a must-have. A 2-ship flight could cover itself with 4-8 ALARMS in Loiter-Mode and still perform a good strike.
British philosophy was not to have a dedicated SEAD asset, but that the flights could cover themselves and all birds should have the capability.

JP-233 was also scrapped with GR.4, Storm Shadow was introduced with GR.4 (British and Saudi).
KEPD Taurus is the German counterpart to Storm Shadow and came with ASSTA 1, as did GPS.


5. About the ECR:
I think I have to clarify some things about the ECR (and with it IDS). HARMs can be used on both birds (to this day)
As correctly mentioned, they are only used on ECRs in the GAF, but they could use it on IDS birds.

The main factor of the ECR is the ELS, that's not a secret. Emitter Locating System.
Apart from that it is actually not as special as widely believed. It does emitter location. We can do emitter locating in DCS already.
The performance is pretty hard classified. Only thing to tell about that, the US thought about buying the ECR for a while, that comment to how good the ELS is.

But other than that, it once had IRLS (IIS) [Infra red Line scan / Infra-Red Imaging system], thats not so much of a secret and it once had ODIN, a pretty crappy Data link system, only could do ECR -> ECR (no other bird had that)

And it has a FLIR. Also more of a toy from what I heard from actual users.
It had the same Jammer as the IDS did, so there is not so much EW magic happening.

It is really not that big of a thing. It has no guns. It's a dedicated SEAD/RECON Tornado, I think an early variant is doable. It is nice.
But I think it is not necessary, the other variants can do the same thing except for the emitter location, and we would never get its real performance.

A GR.1+GR.1A+GR.1B packet would have the same use. And those birds are pretty similar, a lot more than the two F-14s we get.
Plus SkyShadow was the better Jammer, but still, EW is crap in DCS atm. Just wanted to mention it.


Resume:
So for you guys, I don't know what you want, but if you love that cold war striker with a fancy A-G radar (for its time), the earlier birds are simply better. I dont know how good the TARDIS (the British replacement for the CRPMD), I think it is pretty cool.
I also think the GR.4 is very capable.

But the Tornado was forced into a roll it never was intended for. It did medium altitude CAS and RECON for the last 20 years but the original equipment was not used for that any more. GMR and TFR (Terrain following radar) are not really used any more.

I think F-16, F-18 and F-15E will be platforms that can do those things better, apart from carrying 9 Brimstone maybe, or 4 Storm Shadow. But they use less fuel at medium alt. while having better engine performance and agility.
The Tornado really is a brick at 15000ft and above, and I am not talking about dogfight. It has to go 450++ knots and below 10000ft to shine.

For me it's a GR.1. It had LGB in the 1990s, ALARM, early equivalent of a TGP (TIALD), a nice A-G radar, Sea Eagle (GR.1B) but also that older stuff and could use it to its full potential. My dad was a german IDS cold war WSO, even they said the British simply had better equipment, except for the SMS (store management system).

I would be thankful for a ASSTA 1 or earlier IDS, an Italian one, those have ILS.
But apart from the GR.4 being very fancy, we have a lot of fancy stuff already and they do better. I think we will be disappointed of an ASSTA 3 (or more) IDS or a GR.4 with the other birds around.
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Last edited by Bananabrai; 09-15-2020 at 08:49 AM.
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