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Old 08-21-2020, 08:23 PM   #171
westr
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The 3rd party devs are our only hope after Nick Grey ruled out ED doing it.
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Old 08-22-2020, 09:53 AM   #172
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Quote:
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The 3rd party devs are our only hope after Nick Grey ruled out ED doing it.
I still very much hope that Heatblur is currently working on a Tornado.
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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

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Old 08-22-2020, 10:41 AM   #173
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Perhaps TrueGrit would also be a suitable candidate. Only then, I'm afraid we will have to wait a long time for the tornado, 'cause they have a lot to do with the EF.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:39 PM   #174
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any tornado that isnt vaporware
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Old 08-23-2020, 03:37 AM   #175
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I searched for some documentation on the IDS Variants. These MFDs/Screens seen in some Pictures came with ASSTA 2 already. Regarding German variants and classification I see chances for ASSTA 2 in DCS.

In regards of the british variants I go with GR.4. Based on Infos from the Web the GR.1 variant had no FLIR, LASER, GPSWR and no night time operation capabilities. So it is GR.4 for me. And GR.4 is a 1998 Modernisation. So it should be possible to get it into DCS. Since the Tornado is retired in the UK the chance to get former classified documentation and information should be higher.

I am not sure how accurate those informations on the web are. Maybe some experts and some active or former tornado pilots can shed some light on those variants and its differences.

My bets for Heatblur doing Tornado IDS Gr.4 or similar are pretty high, after experiencing their great work with the F-14B Tomcat. I would say 80:20 chance. It would fit Heatblur very well.
It should be possible for Heatblur to get well and swift through development on such an Tornado IDS Project, since all the experience they made with the Tomcat.
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Old 08-23-2020, 11:32 AM   #176
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In regards of the british variants I go with GR.4. Based on Infos from the Web the GR.1 variant had no FLIR, LASER, GPSWR and no night time operation capabilities.
There's some false information here. The Tornado was night and all-weather capable from the very beginning. Not sure what makes you think the GR.1 was not night/all-weather capable?

The GR.1 recieved the TIALD targeting pod for Dessert Storm, which includes FLIR and LASER. This was a rushed stopgap solution though, untill it was properly implemented for the GR.4. The crews had no time to train with the TIALD prior to Dessert Storm, so they had to learn it there.
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Old 08-23-2020, 01:22 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
There's some false information here. The Tornado was night and all-weather capable from the very beginning. Not sure what makes you think the GR.1 was not night/all-weather capable?

The GR.1 recieved the TIALD targeting pod for Dessert Storm, which includes FLIR and LASER. This was a rushed stopgap solution though, untill it was properly implemented for the GR.4. The crews had no time to train with the TIALD prior to Dessert Storm, so they had to learn it there.
Anybody here who can explain the differences of the tornado IDS variants? That would help a lot. I would love to know in detail what Night-Combat-Capability in GR.1 had looked like and why they had to develope "night-combat-capability" in the GR.4 after all. What are the exact Features of the GR.1? An Overall feature list?

Like someone else mentioned, I would love to fly a F-14D not F-14A Tornado
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Old 08-23-2020, 01:49 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKev View Post
Anybody here who can explain the differences of the tornado IDS variants? That would help a lot. I would love to know in detail what Night-Combat-Capability in GR.1 had looked like and why they had to develope "night-combat-capability" in the GR.4 after all. What are the exact Features of the GR.1? An Overall feature list?

Like someone else mentioned, I would love to fly a F-14D not F-14A Tornado
I have the suspicion, that the "night combat capability" you're talking about for the GR.4 was the integration of NVGs and the TGP. The GR.1's night/all-weather capability was based on it's radars and nav system, that allowed it to hit a target with pinpoint accuracy without seeing it (like all Cold War night/all-weather strike aircraft). The original IDS was equipped with:
- an INS, that allowed it to navigate precisely,
- a ground mapping radar, that allowed it to find its targets in zero visibility conditions.
- a terrain following radar, that allowed it to conduct low level flying in zero visibility conditions.
That's what made it night/all-weather capable.

We DCS players, who are used to state of the art 4th generation jets, seem to forget how things worked during the Cold War, where the focus was on low level interdiction strikes, that worked different than the CAS and precision strikes of todays conflicts. The ability to conduct low level flying is something that has deteriorated in NATO air forces since the Cold War. Pilots don't really train that anymore and things like terrain following radars are missing on modern fighter jets.
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Old 08-23-2020, 02:39 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGon View Post
I have the suspicion, that the "night combat capability" you're talking about for the GR.4 was the integration of NVGs and the TGP. The GR.1's night/all-weather capability was based on it's radars and nav system, that allowed it to hit a target with pinpoint accuracy without seeing it (like all Cold War night/all-weather strike aircraft). The original IDS was equipped with:
- an INS, that allowed it to navigate precisely,
- a ground mapping radar, that allowed it to find its targets in zero visibility conditions.
- a terrain following radar, that allowed it to conduct low level flying in zero visibility conditions.
That's what made it night/all-weather capable.

We DCS players, who are used to state of the art 4th generation jets, seem to forget how things worked during the Cold War, where the focus was on low level interdiction strikes, that worked different than the CAS and precision strikes of todays conflicts. The ability to conduct low level flying is something that has deteriorated in NATO air forces since the Cold War. Pilots don't really train that anymore and things like terrain following radars are missing on modern fighter jets.
Thanks for the Information. Yes I recently heard in a German Documentary about the Tornado that the Pilots had to trust there systems (Ground Mapping Radar and Terrain Following Radar) to fly save in low level flights at night. There was also one of the main test pilots interviewed who was part of the Tornado program for decades. I also recently learned, that the Tornado IDS has the Aim-9 Lima as the only weapon that is used as defence against air threads. But the no. 1 Priority is to dive low and try to escape, since this Tornado is a heavy bomber-jet that is not doing well in Air to Air combat and therefor, air combat is the last resort.

The only full Air Combat capable variant is the ADV if I remember right, but this platform would not be that interesting I suppose. As a German kid that grew up with his US Family parts and contact to the US Military (One of my Uncles was Tank Commander in 2nd Golf war 1990-1991 "Operation Desert Storm") I never had the Tornado on the Radar. So it is some kind of discovering the Tornado and its state of the art technology it had when it came into active duty.

I am still digging all information about this platform and checking some documentaries. When I find a good one I will share.

Let us hope that Heatblur is going for the Tornado. It is a realy interesting and capable Aircraft with an compelling story behind it. My wish would be that Heatblur does a all around Tornado Module Pack where you are able to switch between a GR.1 or GR.4 and a German variant like the ASSTA 2 for example inkluding sub variants like IDS / ECR / ADV where the interior and cockpit will change depending on the module you use. Similar with switching from F-14B to F-14A when its done. It sounds a lot and I may be wrong, but as far as I was able to read and see in two documentaries so far, it seems that this Tornado and its Variants has huge similarities except a few systems and weapons loadout based on its role. And that would be something amazing to finally have in DCS. I would pay even $100 for such a module without thinking twice. I remember from the old Falcon4 days that you where able two switch platform variants of the F-16 and you had the coresponding differences. I miss something like that in DCS. I dont expect that a developer has to release all its modules with all possible variants. But if there is a Airplane that offers to do so because there are more similarities than differences, I would be very pleased to see such an effort. What do you guys think? Like I said, I may be wrong but Tornado and its variants sound promising.

regards
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Old 08-23-2020, 04:47 PM   #180
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What are the Pro's & Con's that speak for Heatblur having the best skills for doing the Tornado?:

- They already gained experience with a low level attack aircraft: Viggen
- They already gained experience with wing sweep
- They already gained experience with terrain following radar
- They proofed with F-14 how good they are in research & development of flight models
- The Tornado fits the knowledge and Time period of Viggen and F-14
- Most weapons and systems of the Tornado are similar or at least comparable with Viggen and F-14
- They have experience with reverse thrust implementation
- They have experience with avionics and systems of that time period shown in development of Viggen and F-14
- they have .... many more... they are gods in aircraft simulation - period.


Does anybody else have something to add to this list? Anything that speaks against it or even some more pro's I did not manage to mention?
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