F14E Super Tomcat '21 Project proposal and discussion

Fiction bits aside, most companies don't make design proposals without first doing a whole load of model tests and calculations, so I imagine that Grumman did much of that kind of work long before they brought the proposal to congress. Sure, much this is just the normal preliminary work, and the final aircraft may be different, but one can at least assume that an aircraft designed in the mid 90s would be much closer to the design weight in the final product when it rolls out to the public (within a few thousand pounds ofc), or at least within the margins enough that the engines won't have issues.

Obviously, we simply don't know what the final ST21 would've looked like, or how it would've flown. As for looks, one of the things I wanted to go with was a more 'stealthy' look in the same vein as what we got with the Super Hornet. The reason I'd be going with that is because by the time this thing was designed, RCS reduction would've been on peoples minds, and some of these features do improve aerodynamics and thus, improve range by reducing drag. The other reason I'd go for it... if you've seen some of the 'stealth cat' concepts people have cooked up, it kinda looks cool.

However, external features aside, the real challenge when making the model is the cockpit, in that I have no idea beyond the F-15E HUD that was in the proposal what the actual cockpit  would've looked like. I imagine that the front seat would've probably looked close to a YF-23 since Northrop would've been a part of the design process, and those MFDs would've been useful. I could be mistaken, and if any of you guys have ideas, please share.

I would imagine that the Super Tomcat (it’s what they pretty much called it) would’ve had a APU, Glass cockpit much like the Super hornets yet much more spacious with possibly larger MFDs like about the size of the ones in the AH-64D, the rear would definitely have at least 2 MFDs plus the MFD version of the TID (I think it was called the PTID), GPS IS system much like what is in the hornet, Datalink similar to the Hornets, IFF like what’s in the hornet, Full Fly By Wire, much more powerful engines such as the Version of the GE-F110 engines that are in the viper (I think F-129s), Improved AIM-54s better guidance and better motor, and a Lightning Pod, And a HMD for the Pilot and probably the Rio probably like what the WSO in the F18 has (might be the same in the front and the back idk), I would imagine the cockpit frame would still be a A Frame, the Stick I could see still being the Original Tomcat’s Stick yet  function on it, and the throttle probably having MFD functions on it such as TMS, and SOI, as other functions for TGP, RDR, etc. are controlled by the RIO, I could see the cockpits still having that wide tomcat pit and same angles etc. yet looking much more modern with more modernized switches, lights, but still having the Grumman Red Cockpit lighting, and the cockpit would probably look much more Clean like in the F18 not sure really how to explain it, the cockpit would still very much look like the F14s yet much more modern and clean. Regardless I wish you luck if you do pursue this, and I will be willing to help you if you pursue this how ever my experience is more as a 2D artist. Regardless if this gets off the ground it would bring new life to the F14 and I once again wish you luck if you plan to pursue this.

Based on the things I have seen, I imagine that the F-14E's front cockpit might look something like this.  Obviously the old F-14A/B style stick would have to go, and be replaced by a more F-15-like stick, like what the F-14D had, and the warning light panel is probably not in the right place, but the overall MFD config here is probably pretty close for the front cockpit.

On 2/28/2021 at 5:40 PM, Tank50us said:

Fiction bits aside, most companies don't make design proposals without first doing a whole load of model tests and calculations, so I imagine that Grumman did much of that kind of work long before they brought the proposal to congress. Sure, much this is just the normal preliminary work, and the final aircraft may be different, but one can at least assume that an aircraft designed in the mid 90s would be much closer to the design weight in the final product when it rolls out to the public (within a few thousand pounds ofc), or at least within the margins enough that the engines won't have issues.

 

Obviously, we simply don't know what the final ST21 would've looked like, or how it would've flown. As for looks, one of the things I wanted to go with was a more 'stealthy' look in the same vein as what we got with the Super Hornet. The reason I'd be going with that is because by the time this thing was designed, RCS reduction would've been on peoples minds, and some of these features do improve aerodynamics and thus, improve range by reducing drag. The other reason I'd go for it... if you've seen some of the 'stealth cat' concepts people have cooked up, it kinda looks cool.

However, external features aside, the real challenge when making the model is the cockpit, in that I have no idea beyond the F-15E HUD that was in the proposal what the actual cockpit  would've looked like. I imagine that the front seat would've probably looked close to a YF-23 since Northrop would've been a part of the design process, and those MFDs would've been useful. I could be mistaken, and if any of you guys have ideas, please share.

They did do a lot of that stuff, there was a whole lot of redesign that went into the ST-21.  AFAIK no RCS-reduction measures were considered, it was mostly about expanding the capabilities of the Tomcat airframe to meet future needs.  Therefore the more powerful GE F-110-129 engines, redesigned wing gloves, extra fuel capacity, and modern avionics.  The wings were supposed to have enlarged slats and flaps, and even be a little thicker in one design variation for even more fuel capacity (I'm not sure how well-thought out that idea was, the Turkey already had such long legs that thickening the wings might hurt the plane's top speed.  I have heard some wild things about P&W F-119 engines and thrust vectoring nozzles, but I don't think Grumman ever seriously considered that, especially the nozzles.  As other people have said on here, the RCS reduction measures applied to the Super Hornet cause a lot of problems for performance, which is why if you're going to build a plane with high performance and low RCS you have to design it from the ground up for those things, and the F-14 design just wasn't there in terms of being easily modified to accept RCS reduction measures without a significant performance hit.  The Super Hornet has S-Shaped intake ducts that hide the compressor faces of the engines fairly well, but that due to the geometry of the Hornet that wasn't too hard to design for.  As far as the Tomcat is concerned if you try to do anything like that you basically end up with a swing-wing Su-57.  All the stealth Tomcat concepts I've seen (other than a single-seat derivative of the F-22 with swing wings, which doesn't really count) make no attempt to hide the biggest radar return source on the plane - the engine compressor faces.  Yeah they look cool, but in practice they wouldn't have been nearly as hard to detect as the photos would suggest.  I suspect Grumman knew this, but whether they did or not they never actually had any plans that I'm aware of to lower the plane's RCS.  It was meant to be essentially the carrier-based counterpart to the F-15E, albeit retaining a heavy focus on the F-14's original fleet defense role.  The Navy was apparently still concerned enough about the fleet defense role that it researched two designs for missiles to replace the AIM-54, and the Navy had only one plane with the performance and the radar capabilities necessary to fully exploit these long range AIM-54 replacements - the F-14.  The AAAM program as it was called was cancelled in the 90s for the same reason as the ST-21 - the powers that be thought that it was too expensive and unnecessary.  While the AAAM and the ST-21 weren't exactly developed in conjunction (IIRC it was originally intended to arm the F-14D), they would have probably become very much related had the ST-21 actually been chosen over the Super Hornet, because the F-14Ds would have likely been outmoded buy the newer and more capable jet.  You can go totally fictional with the stealthy look and all, or make a plane that is as close as possible (under the circumstances) to what the ST-21 was supposed to have been.  I personally favor the latter, but it'll probably come down to popular opinion among the people who make this happen as to which version gets made - and that assumes that it actually gets made.

This is what I envision when I think about the ST-21.  @Tank50us I'm not sure what you think about this, but this is artwork based off what Grumman had come up with.  Just food for thought.

As you can see here, the plane has an AIM-120, AIM-9Xs, a GBU-12, a pair of JSOWs, and SDBs.  It also has a Sniper XR Targeting pod, and the other pod is a FLIR/navigation system.  Now obviously all of this didn't even exist back in the 90s, the artist tried to depict what the F-14E might have been like circa 2010.  Original plans called for a Litening TPOD and the upgraded avionics/new engines/airframe redesign.  Here's a better example of what that might have looked like:

Another thing that was planned was to get rid of the windscreen bracing that was a significant visibility problem in the Tomcat.  The windscreen would have been more like what you find on a Hornet or F-15.  Here's an article that summarizes what was supposed to have been the ST-21 and goes into a bit of detail with possible upgrades circa 2010: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29653/this-is-what-grummans-proposed-f-14-super-tomcat-21-would-have-actually-looked-like
ANFT has similar information, albeit without the artwork.

The 'stealthy' bits would've just come down to a re-shape of certain parts of the aircraft, taking what was learned from the YF-23 and YF-22 and trying to incorporate some of that knowledge into the new frame design. Basically, the intakes would've had some changes done, the vertical tails would be reworked, work to remove 90d angles would've been undertaken, research done into new composites for the skin in certain areas, and what I like to call 'radar breaks' in certain areas (like having a small shark tooth over the gun port, or some shark-teeth in the landing gear, etc). I'd also be looking at some areas where weight reduction and simplification could be made (if it were me doing the design ofc), as well as making the whole thing as Maverick Proof as possible (IE, a pilot would have to really try to break his plane... in order to break his plane). There would also be the option of incorporating an HMD, at least for the pilot, and a host of displays for the WSO (which would now be the 'correct' term for the BIB).

In short, I'd be taking the concept pics you posted (which I think were in the article I linked), and also incorporating new features to make the aircraft an even more effective "This airspace is mine" fighter, and that's both internal, and external. Internally, the aircraft would also have the ability to auto-interrogate a radar contact (iirc, irl, the RIO or an E2 had to do this), it would have an integrated FLIR pod, as well as a newly designed camera system in the nose (later versions having what you see in the F-35).

The concept as I see it, would be the aircraft 'entering service' in mid-late 2005, just as the first of the As are being sent to the boneyard. Full fleet replacement happening by 2015 (assuming Congress allowed), and the aircraft likely still competitive well into the 2060s in certain roles. Ofc, this assumes that the threat of massive Anti-ship bomber attacks against the carrier still exists in this alternate timeline. But if done, that would apply to an entire pack of aircraft: What if they entered service, what would they look like, how would they perform, how would they be armed, and how well would they fight. Some aircraft are easy, like the F-20 or YF-23, since they were built, flew, and we know how they handled. Others would take a bit of work to get right, but data does exist on the things they were supposed to use (engines, systems, etc), and if done right, I think even the most hard-core simmers would appreciate them.... if for no other reason than it gives them more things to shoot at.

ST-21 was not going to be changed with "stealthy bits." Possibly ASF-14 would have had some trapezoidal intake ducts, but ST-21 was essentially an F-14D with LANTIRN & nav pods on Phoenix/bomb fairings,  a one piece windscreen, fowler flaps, possibly new model of GE F110, retaining the other advancements of F-14D.  

As far as numbers,  imagine full F-14D procurement goes through with 127 new builds and 400 rebuilt F-14D(R). Quick Strike is a sure thing as is AMRAAM. Around 2004, it's much more reasonable to adopt ST-21 as F-14E with similar engine and radar improvements as on Strike Eagle almost for free. 

Rather than invest in Super Bug, start replacing the F-14D(R) with new build F-14E and convert the 127 F-14D.  Around 2010 they see the upgrade from the Drive article. 

Would love to see a mod.

The bottom half of that article from the drive describes what theoretically  would’ve been upgraded in F-14E the first half is what theoretically the First version of the F-14E would’ve looked like, the F-14E would Have F110-429 a lengthen version of the F-110-129 to accommodate for the length of the F-14 (the same engine that is in the F-16) I would definitely like to see this plane develop into a mod

Yeah better engine but NAVAIR and/ or DoD might decide its an easier sale to Congress to stay with proven F110-400s. Would be nice to consider ASF-14 with navalized F119s...

On 3/9/2021 at 10:26 PM, Uxi said:

ST-21 was not going to be changed with "stealthy bits." Possibly ASF-14 would have had some trapezoidal intake ducts, but ST-21 was essentially an F-14D with LANTIRN & nav pods on Phoenix/bomb fairings,  a one piece windscreen, fowler flaps, possibly new model of GE F110, retaining the other advancements of F-14D.  

 

As far as numbers,  imagine full F-14D procurement goes through with 127 new builds and 400 rebuilt F-14D(R). Quick Strike is a sure thing as is AMRAAM. Around 2004, it's much more reasonable to adopt ST-21 as F-14E with similar engine and radar improvements as on Strike Eagle almost for free. 

 

Rather than invest in Super Bug, start replacing the F-14D(R) with new build F-14E and convert the 127 F-14D.  Around 2010 they see the upgrade from the Drive article. 

 

Would love to see a mod.

 

Same here.  There weren't any RCS-reduction measures planned for the ST-21.  The ST-21 was supposed to have the GE F-110-129 (or some version thereof, maybe -429 with the tailpipe extension that the F-14 engine bay required).  Circa 2010 it might have gotten the F-110-135 which is the same engine used in a special version of the F-16 (IIRC was special-ordered by Qatar or some other Arab country).  The -135 delivers over 30,000lbf thrust in full reheat under the right conditions.

@Spino the engine your referring to that you’re calling the -135 is GE F110-132 producing 32,000lbs of thrust, the ST-21 would’ve gotten a F-110-429 same engine as the F-16 but with the tail pipe extension, circa 2010 it could’ve gotten the GE F110-432 producing a crazy a mount fo thrust 64,000lbs of thrust combined between both engines 

I thought it was either the -135 or -130, but you're right, it's the -132.  I can remember the -129 no problem, but IDK why I have trouble with the -132.

Is a mod on the F-14 module feasible? Frankenstein the MFD and ejection seat, A/A, A/G and nav modes, etc from Hornet....

1 hour ago, Uxi said:

Is a mod on the F-14 module feasible? Frankenstein the MFD and ejection seat, A/A, A/G and nav modes, etc from Hornet....

Unfortunately no. The only way this project, and others like it will ever see the light of day is as a proper module. A mod based on an FC3 module IS possible, but to do it the justice required, it'd have to be a proper module, and ED would have to be on board with it.

ST-21 cockpit mock up.

I remember reading wind tunnel testing was done, you might want to track down old Northrop employees and see if anyone knows were to get it.

2 hours ago, F-2 said:

ST-21 cockpit mock up.

 

I remember reading wind tunnel testing was done, you might want to track down old Northrop employees and see if anyone knows were to get it.

Given that I'm considering making this a full module rather than just a mod now... that actually helps out quite a bit to see what Grumman had in mind. Is there a larger image available?

4 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

Given that I'm considering making this a full module rather than just a mod now... that actually helps out quite a bit to see what Grumman had in mind. Is there a larger image available?

http://creativemodelshop.com/displays.html
 

this seems to have been the maker, they have a shot of the Rio station I would contact them for more info, they might even still have a model they can sell you.

You might want to look into the F-14 that flight tested the f401-pw-100 engine and the one that flew with the F101-ge engine. Both of these flew on a real f-14a and are broadly comparable to a supertomcat 21 in terms of thrust with the f101 being the ancestor of the of the F110. F-14a also likely would have had globe vains.

Is there still any interest in this?

Indeed! 

Tons of interest in this. Grim Reapers are talking about it as well

Wonder if Grumman employees would help.  Just need Northrop-Grumman to sign off... 

I'm not sure how many Grumman employees would know much about it anymore, it's been 15 years since the Tomcat was retired, I would imagine former Grumman employees who worked there in the '90s when the ST21 and its variants were on the drawing board would probably be who we're actually looking for.  I have thought before that maybe a mod for the F-14B similar to what the IDF Mods Project group did for the F-16 might be possible, but it would be limited by the elderly avionics of the F-14B.  If only we had an F-14D Super Tomcat module, that would be the place to start for a mod along those lines, but since such a module does not exist and may never exist, it would probably be better to start from scratch.

This looks almost like a 5th gen cockpit tbh, imagine how good the Tomcat would have been as a strike platform with this.  One of its outstanding features during OEF was the PTID, which allowed for greater magnification with the LANTIRN pod than was available on the Hornet and F-15E.  This looks to be much bigger than even the PTID.

Most likely a dead project