GBU-12 and autolase

Lets imagine a situation. I'm at angels 23, cloudy. Can't see the target. JTACS provide UTM for the target location. TGP set to SPI at the location, but can't see anything (Clouds). I'm getting LAse failure after dropping the bomb. Do I have to go bellow cloud deck? Even with the TGP set SPI at the target location?

This is happening to me in Mission#11 of Piercing Fury Campaign.

Thanks!

You'd better use JDAM's for this. The LG GBU 12 can't see through the clouds. JDAM's just targeting a reference point in the grid system.

I used D Mavs to take out the bunkers from beneath the clouds and dropped CBU's from above the clouds on the troops. Worked out pretty well but the mission is designed to use GBU 38s.

Yes, but the remarks was to use GBU12, though. I didnt know that GBU-12 cant see thru the clouds. Anyway, I used the GBU-38 and complete the mission..

Thanks!

Alternatively you could request a ground lase from a JTAC. As long as the cloud base isn’t too low, the seeker will detect a laser spot on the ground with enough time to guide onto it.

Gbu-38 for everything apart from moving targets, they are much easier to employ and can you can use them through clouds etc as long as your mark point/spi is accurate they wont miss. You can use whatever means to accomplish the mission, you don't need to do exactly what the mission says brief says ;)

Gbu-38 for everything apart from moving targets, they are much easier to employ and can you can use them through clouds etc as long as your mark point/spi is accurate they wont miss. You can use whatever means to accomplish the mission, you don't need to do exactly what the mission says brief says ;)

Unfortunately they're not available in tripple racks though :(

Gbu-38 for everything apart from moving targets, they are much easier to employ and can you can use them through clouds etc as long as your mark point/spi is accurate they wont miss. You can use whatever means to accomplish the mission, you don't need to do exactly what the mission says brief says ;)

The remarks was from JTAC. But the point is, who is lasing? I understand that I'm lasing from the above, and the laser can go thru the clouds to the SPI. Am I wrong?

No, it can't. Too much refraction and absorbtion for the laser beam from the water particles in the clouds.

I also struggled in this mission even with the GBU38, not sure what I'm doing wrong... Bomb just keeps hitting the mountain.. I'm thinking that the direction I'm coming in the target must be obscured by the mountain. Not sure what else could be making miss the target... Coordinates are correct in the CDU.

I also struggled in this mission even with the GBU38, not sure what I'm doing wrong... Bomb just keeps hitting the mountain.. I'm thinking that the direction I'm coming in the target must be obscured by the mountain. Not sure what else could be making miss the target... Coordinates are correct in the CDU.

Guess you're right with having the target obscured from the mountains. Either go pretty high or from the right direction does the trick here. Not quite sure as this mission is some time ago for me but coming from south-southwest you should get it as the valley opens up to this direction - so you're flying into the funnel.

I used to knock out the Bunkers with MAVs and the AAA with CBUs used in a wide spread. Did the job but it's kind of cheating, i know. Tough mission in the first place but if you know how to set up your Markpoints on the CDU it's doable.

Good hunting!:joystick:

Yes, but the remarks was to use GBU12, though. I didnt know that GBU-12 cant see thru the clouds. Anyway, I used the GBU-38 and complete the mission..

 

Thanks!

Its not so much that the GBU-12s can't see through the clouds (they can't) but its that the laser won't penetrate the clouds and therefore the bomb won't see the laser spot once they are below the clouds.

The main principle that a lot of people don't understand about LGBs is that the bomb is NOT following the laser beam itself. It is only seeing the reflected spot on the ground and guides to that spot. The beam itself is irrelevant to the bomb. But if the A/C is above the clouds, even thin wispy clouds, the laser will not penetrate that and instead will be reflecting off the top fo the clouds. Or more importantly is being diffused by the clouds. In any case, the laser will never be on target on the ground, so therefore your GBU-12 will never see it and therefore never guide.

The only way to fix this is to

(A): release below the clouds

(B): Have someone on the ground designate the target with a laser (i.e. a JTAC)

© or have a wingman below the clouds to buddy lase the bomb.

A GBU12/10 can be released above a cloud deck with no problem as long as it has sufficient lase time once it pops through the bottom of the cloud deck (usually 8-10 sec) and there is a laser spot on the correct code illuminating the target for it to see once it pops out of the clouds. It just takes some extra coordination.

As someone said, better to use JDAM / GBU-38s instead if you know there is a cloud deck and you can't operate below the clouds due to terrain or threats.

Thanks!

I was able to finish the mission yesterday with 100 rounds on the cannon, nothing else, including 3 dead wingman. :D

But regardless, I keep missing with the GBU 38. Checked the coordinates twice. Should be the direction coming in, or because I’m using the TGP which I’m assuming it shouldn’t be used in this case?

If you find time you can check my twitch page since I have the mission there. I’ve been streaming the entire campaign. Any type of help is appreciated since I do wanna know what I’m doing wrong.

twitch.tv/thebizno

Thanks again!!

The auto laser failure message only comes if the laser Arm switch is in the safe position.

Your missing with the GB38s since the UTM grid you get is something like 38T NM 246 257 (made those up) 6 digit grids are 100x100m so not precise enough for a jdam to hit.

Actually I get the following message from the ground units:

Hawg-1, Line 1, IP ALPHA, Line 2, Heading 345, Line 3, 9.5 clicks, Line 4, 12,400 ft MSL, Line 5, 2 X AAA enplacememts, 2 X heavy gunner positions, 2 X mortar teams, 4 X snipers, line 6, LN 08079 79545, Line 7 n/a, Line 8, 087 degrees, for 1.6 clicks, Line 9, Heading 270,...

Some are obvious but if you could help me with the meaning of line 2, 3, 8 and 9 that would be helpful. By the way, this is from mission 11 of operation piercing fury campaign.

Thanks!

Actually I get the following message from the ground units:

 

Hawg-1, Line 1, IP ALPHA, Line 2, Heading 345, Line 3, 9.5 clicks, Line 4, 12,400 ft MSL, Line 5, 2 X AAA enplacememts, 2 X heavy gunner positions, 2 X mortar teams, 4 X snipers, line 6, LN 08079 79545, Line 7 n/a, Line 8, 087 degrees, for 1.6 clicks, Line 9, Heading 270,...

 

Some are obvious but if you could help me with the meaning of line 2, 3, 8 and 9 that would be helpful. By the way, this is from mission 11 of operation piercing fury campaign.

 

Thanks!

1. Initial Point

2. Heading from IP to target

3. Distance from IP to target

4. Elevation of target

5. Description of target

6. Location of target

7. Type of mark on target

8. Location of friendly forces

9. Direction of egress

Check out Eddie's guide and 9-line card: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=58793

1. Initial Point

2. Heading from IP to target

3. Distance from IP to target

4. Elevation of target

5. Description of target

6. Location of target

7. Type of mark on target

8. Location of friendly forces

9. Direction of egress

 

Check out Eddie's guide and 9-line card: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=58793

Thank you!!

Just one more question, how useful is the egress direction for my attack? After that message I was provided with another one which is the attack heading, in this case it was 345. Should this attack heading be in relation to a specific "start point"?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to figure out why do the gbu 38 keep missing the target.

Thanks again!

Sorry, long post ahead.

Just one more question, how useful is the egress direction for my attack?

For the attack? Not at all. :smartass:

For the CAS workflow: a whole lot!

The JTAC will have a mental picture where you are before the attack (holding point), how you should fly from the holding point to the target (ingress), how you get out of the area as safely as possible (egress) and where you should be holding after the attack.

A real JTAC might already think about the following attack, and how to deconflict multiple flights that occupy the same airspace so they don't come crashing into one another.

Long story short, the egress direction doesn't usually help you with the attack at all, but you must follow this instruction nonetheless in order to satisfy the JTAC's orders.

After that message I was provided with another one which is the attack heading, in this case it was 345. Should this attack heading be in relation to a specific "start point"?

The final attack heading is the heading you must fly right before weapon release (as in final attack). The weapon's frag and blast pattern, enemy location and composition, terrain, position of friendlies, and avoiding collateral damage all play a role here.

In a simple case, the final attack heading will be the same as the heading from the IP to the target, but things can quickly go complicated if the final attack heading is offset from that direct line. In that case it's your job to maneuver from the IP to the target in such a way that you still meet the final attack heading, and comply with all restrictions.

In case of your twitch video, line 2 from the 9-line and the final attack heading are both 345°, so you're lucky and you just have to fly over the IP on a straight line to the target, and you'll be magically on your final attack heading thanks to a very friendly JTAC. ;)

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to figure out why do the gbu 38 keep missing the target.

I just watched the relevant portions of your stream (thanks a lot for that!).

In your first attack you asked "why didn't the bomb drop?"

The GBU-38 showed a status of "ALN RDY", which is a bit misleading because they're actually not ready. Their INS alignment is not sufficient to guide them to a target. In order to update the weapon's alignment from the aircraft, you just have to wiggle the wings, or fly a turn of circa 90° or more. As soon as the weapon status changes to "RDY" they're good to go.

Your CBU-105 suffer from the same problem, the only difference is their status reads "ALN DEG" ("Alignment Degraded"), which means pretty much the same, just in other words. ;)

This way of updating the weapon's alignment by the aircraft is called "transfer alignment".

In the video, as you turn for another attack, the alignment for both weapons gets updated, they switch to "RDY", and the active GBU-38 profile also changes to a green indication in the DSMS page.

Back on topic, after watching both GBU-38 attacks, I just don't see anything wrong. Your INS was properly aligned, the altimeter was within 20 feet of airfield elevation at takeoff, the target coordinate looked okay, STPT was selected as SPI generator, the proper steerpoint (TGT1) was selected, the final attack heading was within 5°... by all rights, the weapons should have hit the target as far as I can tell.

I've read repeated reports of GBU-38s being terribly unreliable since a couple of patches ago, but the problem seems sporadic. Sometimes they miss, sometimes they're dead accurate.

Again, as far as I can tell from your video, you did everything okay and the weapons should have hit, but let's hope someone spots a problem we've both missed and can guide you in the proper direction.

Sorry, long post ahead.

 

 

 

For the attack? Not at all. :smartass:

 

For the CAS workflow: a whole lot!

 

The JTAC will have a mental picture where you are before the attack (holding point), how you should fly from the holding point to the target (ingress), how you get out of the area as safely as possible (egress) and where you should be holding after the attack.

 

A real JTAC might already think about the following attack, and how to deconflict multiple flights that occupy the same airspace so they don't come crashing into one another.

 

Long story short, the egress direction doesn't usually help you with the attack at all, but you must follow this instruction nonetheless in order to satisfy the JTAC's orders.

 

 

 

The final attack heading is the heading you must fly right before weapon release (as in final attack). The weapon's frag and blast pattern, enemy location and composition, terrain, position of friendlies, and avoiding collateral damage all play a role here.

 

In a simple case, the final attack heading will be the same as the heading from the IP to the target, but things can quickly go complicated if the final attack heading is offset from that direct line. In that case it's your job to maneuver from the IP to the target in such a way that you still meet the final attack heading, and comply with all restrictions.

 

In case of your twitch video, line 2 from the 9-line and the final attack heading are both 345°, so you're lucky and you just have to fly over the IP on a straight line to the target, and you'll be magically on your final attack heading thanks to a very friendly JTAC. ;)

 

 

 

I just watched the relevant portions of your stream (thanks a lot for that!).

 

In your first attack you asked "why didn't the bomb drop?"

 

The GBU-38 showed a status of "ALN RDY", which is a bit misleading because they're actually not ready. Their INS alignment is not sufficient to guide them to a target. In order to update the weapon's alignment from the aircraft, you just have to wiggle the wings, or fly a turn of circa 90° or more. As soon as the weapon status changes to "RDY" they're good to go.

 

Your CBU-105 suffer from the same problem, the only difference is their status reads "ALN DEG" ("Alignment Degraded"), which means pretty much the same, just in other words. ;)

 

This way of updating the weapon's alignment by the aircraft is called "transfer alignment".

 

In the video, as you turn for another attack, the alignment for both weapons gets updated, they switch to "RDY", and the active GBU-38 profile also changes to a green indication in the DSMS page.

 

Back on topic, after watching both GBU-38 attacks, I just don't see anything wrong. Your INS was properly aligned, the altimeter was within 20 feet of airfield elevation at takeoff, the target coordinate looked okay, STPT was selected as SPI generator, the proper steerpoint (TGT1) was selected, the final attack heading was within 5°... by all rights, the weapons should have hit the target as far as I can tell.

 

I've read repeated reports of GBU-38s being terribly unreliable since a couple of patches ago, but the problem seems sporadic. Sometimes they miss, sometimes they're dead accurate.

 

Again, as far as I can tell from your video, you did everything okay and the weapons should have hit, but let's hope someone spots a problem we've both missed and can guide you in the proper direction.

Damn, Thank You very much for your time!! This is just marvelous! It all makes sense now!

With the time you spent replying to my question I now feel that I should be buying you lunch or at least a beer! :)

And yes, I did hit the gbu 38 on my first attempt at the mission, but the last 2 times I kept wondering what I was doing wrong. Something is indeed wrong.

Thanks again for your time and for looking at the video. Any other suggestions or comments are more then welcome! :)

With the time you spent replying to my question I now feel that I should be buying you lunch or at least a beer! :)

Deal. :)

Kidding aside, if you ever visit Hannover, give me a shout! We have a quite active community of DCS players here. It's always great to meet others players!

Deal. :)

 

Kidding aside, if you ever visit Hannover, give me a shout! We have a quite active community of DCS players here. It's always great to meet others players!

I will by the beer then, if I ever stop in Hannover! :thumbup:

Thanks again!