How does the SD-10 missile compare to the AIM-120C? - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 09-30-2019, 10:03 PM   #11
jojo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylkhan View Post
Why, it seems to be correct, there is absolutely no reason that the AIM120 outrange the SD-10.

"The missile is widely credited with superior range performance to the AIM-120A-C variants."
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-AAM.html
You can asses this website credibility about missile range with that kind of quote:

Quote:
In terms of seekers, the baseline semi-active radar guided variants are equipped with a 9B-1101K seeker, these being the short burn R-27R1 credited with 43 NMI* range
*79.6km for pepin1234

Even MiG-29 and Su-27SK manuals don't claim that kind of range
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo View Post
You can asses this website credibility about missile range with that kind of quote:
Don't understand what you mean, but what the point about about the credibility of this website.

The owner of the website : Carlo Kopp has a PhD and MSc degrees

Publications
Kopp has published in many prominent defense and security publications on matters of aerospace technology, stealth, information warfare and Australian defence policy.[1] These included Defence Today, Air International, Journal of Electronic Defense, Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Australian Aviation and the Asia Pacific Defence Reporter.


It's not enough for credibilty ? perhaps you know better or perhaps he says things that some people don't want to hear
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylkhan View Post
Don't understand what you mean, but what the point about about the credibility of this website.

The owner of the website : Carlo Kopp has a PhD and MSc degrees

Publications
Kopp has published in many prominent defense and security publications on matters of aerospace technology, stealth, information warfare and Australian defence policy.[1] These included Defence Today, Air International, Journal of Electronic Defense, Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Australian Aviation and the Asia Pacific Defence Reporter.


It's not enough for credibilty ? perhaps you know better or perhaps he says things that some people don't want to hear
The range he gives is over twice the range given for R-27R1 in pilot’s manual.

Also the site was used to promote F-22 buy by Australia (yeah, I know F-22 isn’t in production anymore and wasn’t available for export).
The point is exaggerating sino-russian hardware performance serves a political purpose.
China military power growth is a major point of concern for Australia. From my point of view, even if this website has a lot of interesting articles, this is a lobbying relay, and performances should be taken with a grain of salt.

Understanding the motives and intentions of authors may be as useful if not more than knowing about their PHD.
Even Jane’s is about open sources and don’t tell the full story. I don’t care about ballistic range of a missile shot @ M2.3 & FL500...
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Old 10-01-2019, 09:07 AM   #14
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There's text from an interview with the SD-10's deputy chief designer floating around in the recesses of the internet (it's quite old and I think the primary source / where it was first transcribed has disappeared), where the designer says the SD-10 should perform between the 120B and 120C:

Quote:
Ahout the max shot range:
The Deputy Chief Designer of SD-10 said: The parameter of “max range” is determined by the relative position of missile’s carrier and the target aircraft. The assumed conditions by various countries are different. So what the Russian said the max range 100Km may not be better than what we said the max range 70Km. The max range 70Km in SD-10 marketing promotion brochure is measured under the condition that both the missile’s carrier and the target aircraft are flying at 10Km’s altitude, both the missile carrier’s velocity and target’s velocity are 1.2Mach, their flying direction is reverse(head to head). AIM120’s test condition is similar to SD-10. However Russian’s propaganda is a little more exaggerated. For example, R-77’s test condition is: carrier and target are flying at 20Km’s altitude; each has 1.5M’s velocity, head to head flying. Under such a condition, the max range is 100Km. The problem is higher altitude means less aerodynamic resistance, plus the faster velocity for both the carrier and the target. The range is naturally longer. So you shouldn’t only consider parameters isolated with each other. In fact, our SD-10’s range is better than AIM-120A/B, a litter less than AIM-120C, almost same as R-77’s.

About ranking MRAAM:
Designer : It’s not easy to rank …..Various persons have various standards…
First of all, Euro’s Meteor should be No.1. This missile’s performance is very advanced, its range reaches 160Km.It belongs to next generation missiles. Next, I think the AIM-120C is more advanced. For original AIM-120 missile, whatever components, materials and craft are world first class. Now it is upgraded to Type C, it makes new progress on range, precision and anti-jamming capability. Following, It should be our SD-10. Then AIM-120A/B, R-77, Active Skyflash at equal fourth. Then Israel’s Derby, Derby has a comparable overall performance with the above missiles, but its range is relatively short. Last of all, MICA, its tech is not bad, however it’s a tradeoff between BVR and dogfight, so is naturally inferior to dedicated MRAAM.

Reporter asked : Our SD-10 has a good ranking. Why do you say our SD-10 is more advanced than R-77?
Designer: We adopted some technologies more advanced than R-77’s, so SD-10’s overall performance is better than R-77’s. For instance, our strap-down initial navigation system, signal processing system are more advanced than R-77’s. Our missile was developed relatively later than R-77.Some new technologies were not mature when R-77 was developed, so R-77 didn’t use the new technologies, but when SD-10 was developed, the new technologies became mature, so we adopted the new technologies in SD-10.
Best source I can find for it right now is here: https://forums.voz.vn/showthread.php?t=3233336&page=21
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:44 PM   #15
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ausairpower also includes, among other things, this brilliant quote:


Quote:
...the PAK-FA renders all legacy US fighter aircraft, and the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, strategically irrelevant and non-viable after the PAK-FA achieves IOC in 2015.

Detailed strategic analysis indicates that the only viable strategic survival strategy now remaining for the United States is to terminate the Joint Strike Fighter program immediately, redirect freed funding to further develop the F-22 Raptor, and employ variants of the F-22 aircraft as the primary fighter aircraft for all United States and Allied TACAIR needs.



So yea, not exactly the most reliable of websites...
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Old 10-01-2019, 10:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLTeo View Post
ausairpower also includes, among other things, this brilliant quote:


[/FONT]


So yea, not exactly the most reliable of websites...
Thanks for this brilliant demonstration.

So yeah, pro-F-22 lobbying website. Radar and missiles ranges usually overrated.

Thanks @backspace340 too. Interesting interview with what seems to be a fair assessment.
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Old 10-02-2019, 01:51 PM   #17
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Oh god, the

"I, a frequent reader of the wikipedias dont agree with this source and therefore have to discredit the writer (who writes for a couple of well regarded international and national publications) because otherwise I would be wrong"

arguments are pure cringe.
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo View Post

Even MiG-29 and Su-27SK manuals don't claim that kind of range
Do you really think that manuals written many years ago by Russians, will give "secret defense" informations.
Think a little please.
Russians are like French, very hard to have real informations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo View Post
Thanks for this brilliant demonstration. .
The only demonstration i see, is your ignorance.
F-35 doens't compete against sukhoi, then he is totally right.

For your information in the encyclopedia of russian arms, written by russian military specialists and supervised by Vladdimir Mikhailov "general of the army, commander in chief of the air force"

The max launch distance of the R27R is : 80 Km ! I let you to do the conversion in miles, you seems to like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keks View Post
Oh god, the

"I, a frequent reader of the wikipedias dont agree with this source and therefore have to discredit the writer (who writes for a couple of well regarded international and national publications) because otherwise I would be wrong"

arguments are pure cringe.
No problem,people like to know better than others, even when they know...nothing

Last edited by sylkhan; 10-02-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:30 PM   #19
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I can attest that jojo is not ignorant, you want to compare manual reading to Wikipedia go ahead you’ll make a lot of friends here. Educated people can have agendas like normal people, a PhD isn’t going to stop them.
He is just not an authority on missile ranges, here his page on PLA air weapons(https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-AAM.html), no range mentioned for SD-10, four of his five sources are himself and the other one is a paper on a site that doesn’t exist anymore so we have no idea about ANY of the info. Why would I trust someone with a vested interest in his politics affecting his “research?” Same as the Chief of a nations Air Force posting on their Air Force website(they will use the longest range data regardless if it only achieves that at 12000 meters and 1.5 Mach on a target below). How can you even trust missile ranges where the conditions aren’t stated???

I’m not trying to argue, I’m just dumbfounded that someone would so blindly trust a hawk on a website who has a vested interest in selling a particular type

For example, this was probably the result of exactly what he wanted https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-130308-1.html
The PDF for the letter to the Defence Minister https://www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/Lo...22008-3_FR.pdf

Last edited by AeriaGloria; 10-02-2019 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:11 PM   #20
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Here’s something else, in the recent Kashmir skirmish earlier this year, India could not get first shot against AMRAAM with R-77 saying they could not fire beyond 80km. So they went to Russia to buy new weapons with over 100km range(after being refused to integrate the 100km Derby-ER).
So India has trouble killing over 80km with it, Carlo Kopp mentions a 54nm range that converts to about 100 km. He is using best case scenario from manufacturer, and not all manufacturers test the same. One of his better articles actually mentions testing differences. Even Wikipedia mentions 80-100km max range. Point is, I trust Carlo as much as I would trust open source info, he is not the eye of Sauron
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outg...ssiles-2044172
https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-...mozTocId926285

I like his articles for general open source info and he finds really good pictures, but I always read it with a grain of salt
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