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Old 12-02-2018, 02:45 PM   #1
robert.clark251
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I just read everything about VEAO yesterday and their company dropping DCS. I, like everyone else, was furious they decided to drop DCS and then go with another company utilizing DCS images and talking about their success while planning to develop for another sim.

I could go on like so many others have a right to do, but at the end of the day, I created this forum to give ED a legitimate constructive approach for their customers. I do not want this to turn into another easy bash fest on VEAO.

From what I have read, their are several ways VEAO could repay the community for 13 years of non fulfilled promises. I would first like to start by saying ED does NOT have an obligation to repay us. The third party took our money and dropped the ball, not ED. Clearly their was money to start developing for another company the first time, and now a second time. I would also like to say it is unfair to bash the people like myself who prepaid for a promised module by a company we put our trust in. That is a cop out. We realized their was risk, but if I had any inclination the business would not survive, I firmly believe all of us would not have put down any money.

I think above all, VEAO owes it to us, and MOST of all ED, to stop utilizing DCS images to gain revenue we will never see for yet another company they are merging with. Second, they need to stop referring to their success with DCS. This is not a true statement and should not be used to promote anything with the company they merged with.

I think the biggest gesture VEAO could give to the community is releasing what they already have to a competent third party developer who could turn that diamond in the rough into a diamond we want to buy. Does this mean repaying for the module again? Probably, because I would not expect a third party to do it for free, but I would gladly fund another dev to do it right.

To me, I grew up around these War birds and fighters. I am an aviation enthusiast and lover of all aviation. DCS is a great combat simulation, but to me, they are more than that. The fidelity and accuracy of each module helps keep the memory alive of these aircraft and the important roles they have played throughout history and pays homage to the men/women who flew them. We have virtual airshows, current and former pilots from every corner of aviation flying on DCS, and more people joining our community at an increasing rate. DCS is a virtual portal back in time, especially with VR, to those of us who will never be able to sit in the real cockpits and fly these legends.

The Hawk and P-40 still deserve a spot in our hangars. I think VEAO at least owes us that. Give the rights and everything you have on the two aircraft over to a dev who can complete what you guys could not. This I would be satisfied with, even if it means paying a second time for them.

Again guys, out of respect for ED, lets not turn this into a shit throwing contest. If you guys/girls have any other constructive ideas or solutions, I would like to hear them.

Last edited by robert.clark251; 12-02-2018 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:17 PM   #2
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It's not like we have an abundance of 3rd party developers who are desperately searching for another model to make. It's the opposite, DCS developers have usually more plans than manpower. Even if one of them takes over Hawk or P-40 project, it will be at the expense of the current and planned developments. So would you rather see ED work on the Hawk or the Hornet? P47 or P40? Should Razbam postpone finishing the Harrier again? Or Heatblur move the Tomcat and whatever they plan next to 2020?

And we haven't even started discussing the quality of VEAO's work and how much of it would need to be redone to match the standards of other DCS modules.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:23 PM   #3
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I see this sentiment a lot "give us or a third party all of your code and models so they can fix your shit", however I think it's a naive argument. First of all, who is a competent developer? Heatblur? They're busy as all hell. RAZBAM? Aside from my problems with how their management has treated their customer base, they are also busy as all hell. ED has its hands so full they reabsorbed all of BST to help fix their problems and and expand to handle the stuff they're already responsible for. After that you've got the less super star module makes, M5, Polychop and Aviodev, all who have way bigger fish to fry than taking on two more modules.


Also, we don't know how their code is written. Given the absolute metric ton of problems we've seen from the Hawk and the issues we've heard about from the P-40 (suddenly one day the engine couldn't breathe air...) how well documented and written do you think that code is? It sounds like it's just a jumbled mess of spaghetti code that you'd likely be better off scrapping and rewriting entirely. Hell, companies like Heatblur have already started talking about their custom workflows so adding in work from another developer, a developer who's demonstrated time and time again that they're not very good, would any of that previous work be useful?


And even if their code is trash, which I'd go out on a limb and suspect it is, are their models even any good? Their models and texturework frankly aren't anything special. How many times did they say they were retexturing or remodeling things only to never look as good as the MiG-21Bis did back in DCS 1.5?


At the end of the day, I don't think VEAO has anything to offer the community on the front of signing over their modules. You'd be better off petitioning one of the third parties to start from scratch as I suspect that's what would end up happening anyway.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert.clark251 View Post
I would first like to start by saying ED does NOT have an obligation to repay us. The third party took our money and dropped the ball, not ED.
Do you know ED takes 30%(standard deal) on every 3:rd party module sold from ED's site & Steam? If bought trough ED site then they do have an obligation since you bought it from ED not the actual 3:rd party.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by CoBlue View Post
Do you know ED takes 30%(standard deal) on every 3:rd party module sold from ED's site & Steam? If bought trough ED site then they do have an obligation since you bought it from ED not the actual 3:rd party.
Ed has no obligation just like Steam has no obligation to fix all those failed early access games they have in store. That's the risk of early access, you pay in advance for something no one is obliged to deliver.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert.clark251 View Post
I just read everything about VEAO yesterday and their company dropping DCS. I, like everyone else, was furious they decided to drop DCS and then go with another company utilizing DCS images and talking about their success while planning to develop for another sim.
What is this other company you are talking of?

VEAO is being dissolved.
Bluesky FS has been dissolved.

Porrima is supposed to be a joint company between VEAO and another according to the website. It's still active, but its last filing dating accounts to end of Dec 2017 shows it had ~£500 of assets after liabilities.
If they've transfered everything to Porrima, we'll find out next month when they submit the accounts again.

Last edited by Buzzles; 12-02-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:53 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by CoBlue View Post
Do you know ED takes 30%(standard deal) on every 3:rd party module sold from ED's site & Steam? If bought trough ED site then they do have an obligation since you bought it from ED not the actual 3:rd party.

I think it's ED's right to take 30% form every 3rd pary module, because they provide and develop DCS-World as a base platform to use those modules. What could you do with a module, if there was noch DCS-World?
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Old 12-02-2018, 06:04 PM   #8
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Buzzles, here is the website of the company they merged with. I do not feel like the statements made about VEAO in this article are accurate. http://porrimasimulations.co.uk/about/

As far as the rest of the comments go about handing the projects over to another dev, I see your point and concur with what is said. These are things I did not think take into account when making the statement. However, I do realize how busy the other third parties are and in no means did I mean to put any project on the back burner to start these up.

I was just suggesting they would still be a welcomed module to DCS. As always gents thanks for the comments. And let me know what you think about the link above. Maybe I am taking it out of context, but I do believe those are photos taken from DCS, specifically the Nevada map and used to promote how successful of a developer they were. I disagree and would be pissed off if I was ED. To see the photos, click on the links at the top of the page. Their are some photos of them on the flight deck with DCS Nevada map
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoBlue View Post
Do you know ED takes 30%(standard deal) on every 3:rd party module sold from ED's site & Steam?
That's irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoBlue View Post
If bought trough ED site then they do have an obligation since you bought it from ED not the actual 3:rd party.
ED is not responsible for what 3rd parties do, deliver or fail to deliver.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:23 PM   #10
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I actually think ED does have some responsibility in all of this. ED decides who they allow to be a third party developer and they also set the standard of quality. They thoroughly test each third party module before release. The way I see it, ED should have stepped it along time ago. VEAO's poor quality and lack of production did not happen overnight...it's been like that for years. ED's reputation and standards of quality are represented by the third parties as well.
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