[KNOWN ISSUE] AIM-7M F/A-18C & F-14B Comparative Test

The matter has already been discussed ***here*** and ***here***. I found it useful to start another thread in the bugs section, with a new test protocol and the data thus obtained.

During the tests, the target was an AI F/A-18C, level 'excellent', set to evade fire, weapons hold. We were both flying at Angels 10. He was heading West, Mach 0.55. I was heading North, Mach 0.55. The missile left the rail while the target was right in my 12, at 5.0 nm. The STT-locks were done in the RIO seat from the Pulse Search mode in the F-14B, and from RWS in the F/A-18C. The F/A-18C shots were done in norm mode (loft inhibited). There never was any kind of lock loss.

There were 3 rounds of tests, with 30 missiles launched in each round.

1st round: F-14B, ACM cover unflipped.

2nd round: F-14B, ACM cover flipped.

3rd round: F/A-18C.

The Tacview files are in the attachment archive below.

The Tacview files and the data say the same thing: the missile behaves as if it was not the same between the Hornet and the Tomcat. Not the same speed, not the same sensitivity to chaff, not the same guidance laws (and indeed not the same energy management).

The sample relevance is always a question but maybe the difference between the ACM flipped and ACM unflipped results in the Tomcat deserve further investigation.

[Edit] Hadn't seen that one, sorry... https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252949

DCS-AIM-7M-test.zip

They are not the same the AIM-7 on the hornet uses the new FM and autopilot where the HB aim-7 does not. I've included a file from the missile mod I use where I gave the HB AIM-7 the new guidance and FM. (note not exactly the same as the ED one i've changed the thrust values but quite similar)

CoreMods\aircraft\F14\Entry for file directory

Weapons.lua

So all HB would have to do is use the updated ED 7M, correct? I hope this is an easy fix. Would be a great improvement.

Yes it took me less than 15 min. to copy paste the code, test it, and get it working so it is a quick and simple change.

I hope HB developers can look into this problem~ Many thanks!

Yes, please fix. Also thanks OP for going the extra mile in doing all those tests.

IDK if we would want either one honestly, 100% seems OP lol

IDK if we would want either one honestly, 100% seems OP lol

Fired from 5NM 10K feet head on... If it was not 100% hit, it must be under performing.

I want to be very polite. But I have to say, you have zero idea of A2A combat in DCS, sir.

IDK if we would want either one honestly, 100% seems OP lol

100% in the conditions of the test. If you look at the Tacview files, you’ll see that the AI’s dodge maneuver is clumsy: he always goes vertical upward when shot at. Which is the opposite of what to do.

They are not the same the AIM-7 on the hornet uses the new FM and autopilot where the HB aim-7 does not. I've included a file from the missile mod I use where I gave the HB AIM-7 the new guidance and FM. (note not exactly the same as the ED one i've changed the thrust values but quite similar)

Nice, thanks.

I gave it a try. Then I followed your path and brought the exact ED AIM-7M missile to the F-14B. The only modification I made was removing the 'loft_active_by_default' option, which is not relevant in the Tomcat. Thus, the missile behaves exactly the same way as in my tests with the Hornet. NB: I didn't modify any other weapon than the AIM-7M.

If you guys want to give it a try, here's a JSGME compatible mod.

Aquila ED Hornet AIM-7M for the HB F-14B.zip

Thanks for your work Aquila !

I hope HB will move on it quickly...

 

I want to be very polite. But I have to say, you have zero idea of A2A combat in DCS, sir.

Good to know!

Thanks again, Aquila, this has been on the list for a while, atm we are waiting on a reply from ED regarding the AIM-7 following a request concerning the difference of both.

Thanks again, Aquila, this has been on the list for a while, atm we are waiting on a reply from ED regarding the AIM-7 following a request concerning the difference of both.

Great to hear! :thumbup:

Thanks again, Aquila, this has been on the list for a while, atm we are waiting on a reply from ED regarding the AIM-7 following a request concerning the difference of both.

Good to hear, thanks for your feedback.

Thanks again, Aquila, this has been on the list for a while, atm we are waiting on a reply from ED regarding the AIM-7 following a request concerning the difference of both.

Thank you for you reply. Your support is very important for early accessors~

Looking at post history, that's the comment that was given in August. How long have you been waiting for a response from ED? Just asking the obvious but have you tried sending a second email, or calling again? :)

And why is the f14 sparrow different from ED? Thanks!

Does communicating with ED implies HB does not agree with current ED sparrow and wishing ED change theirs to HB version?

Does communicating with ED implies HB does not agree with current ED sparrow and wishing ED change theirs to HB version?

No, not at all, quite the opposite. We feel we are having an outdated sparrow code (which initially was the same (and funny enough still corresponds to another aim7 code) in the hornet, thus it should be updated to what ED is currently using. The best is however to not just copy paste some code (though works quick and well for a mod), but get instructions from ED or maybe a "wait a couple weeks until we are finished" etc... - hence our request.

And why is the f14 sparrow different from ED? Thanks!

We use a custom 3D model, which is also rotated axially 45 degrees. The default DCS one clips into our aircraft, the F-14 uses a different way of attaching the missile than most other aircraft.

We use a custom 3D model, which is also rotated axially 45 degrees. The default DCS one clips into our aircraft, the F-14 uses a different way of attaching the missile than most other aircraft.

Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

No, not at all, quite the opposite. We feel we are having an outdated sparrow code (which initially was the same (and funny enough still corresponds to another aim7 code) in the hornet, thus it should be updated to what ED is currently using. The best is however to not just copy paste some code (though works quick and well for a mod), but get instructions from ED or maybe a "wait a couple weeks until we are finished" etc... - hence our request.

Thank you so much for your reply! Hope ED can sort things out soon. I love HB F14 so much, so I wish it all the best.

Does the Hornet Aim-7M have the same behaviour as the Aim-7MH, where it cannot be chaffed at all? It looks like this from the table on the first page, so the missile may not be working correct either.

Does the Hornet Aim-7M have the same behaviour as the Aim-7MH, where it cannot be chaffed at all? It looks like this from the table on the first page, so the missile may not be working correct either.

Hi, if you fly a perfect notch then chaff. It can be chaffed. Because the missile is guided by DP radar on the shooting platform. If you are higher and have a high relative speed outside of shooter’s notch filter then your chaff will do nothing. If you are lower then the ground is good enough to cover your radar signature, the only thing you need to do is to perfect notch. Again chaff does nothing in this situation. But you should understand SARH missiles are significantly harder to chaff than ARH missiles. I rarely bring chaff in a fox1 only environment because you wouldn’t really need them. The only time you will probably need chaffs is when defending SAM. You will likely be higher than the SAM radar for obvious reason. You first have to notch, then chaff, then prey that missile selected the wrong target and went for the chaff. If you like fox1 fighting I suggest you go to Buddyspike Cauc server to try your fox1 skills. Have a good hunting, sir.

Does the Hornet Aim-7M have the same behaviour as the Aim-7MH, where it cannot be chaffed at all? It looks like this from the table on the first page, so the missile may not be working correct either.

Its sensitivity to chaff is not zero but it's quite low, as far as code is concerned. And for some reasons, some aircraft will chaff it more easily than others (the MiG-29 is on the strong side, the Hornet on the weak one). I don't know if it's realistic but I guess there are a lot of things to be overhauled by ED in terms of missiles, and that's probably why they say they're working on the topic. I can't wait, because AA missiles have been a topic of dissatisfaction for too many years in DCS.

The best is however to not just copy paste some code (though works quick and well for a mod), but get instructions from ED or maybe a "wait a couple weeks until we are finished" etc... - hence our request.

We for sure appreciate your seriousness and your willingness to work in an integrated way with ED. Hope they find themselves time to do so.