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MIG 23MLA capabilities


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It will be fast.

The radar will be mediocre (Better then Mig-21 worse then Mig-29 or Mirage 2000)

The missiles will be Mediocre with R60M for close combat

 

and R-24R and R-24T for BVR

 

(mid 1970s with a 50km range under optimal conditions).

As standard it would have the Spo-10 RWR (Same as Mig-21Bis)

 

 

(Though if i remember correctly they talked about adding the Spo-15 and maybe even R-73 missile as optional upgrades but i could be wrong).

 

 

So the Mig-23MLA will be at a significant disadvantage in a modern Scenarios against a F-18 and F-16 with Aim-120s, Aim-9X and Datalink etc.

 

 

It would have to rely on its acceleration and high speed and use ambush tactics doing quick hit and run attacks

 

(Preferebly with GCI / Awacs to help guide you to the target).

 

 

In a cold war scenarios (With no Aim-120,Aim-9X or helmet mounted sights etc)

 

it would do much better as its weapons and sensors were Ok for the 1970s and 1980s and while it still would not be able to turnfight a 4th Gen fighter

its powerful engine gives it very good acceleration,top speed and climb rate.


Edited by mattebubben
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It will be fast.

The radar will be mediocre (Better then Mig-21 worse then Mig-29 or Mirage 2000)

The missiles will be Mediocre with R60M for close combat

 

and R-24R and R-24T for BVR

 

(mid 1970s with a 50km range under optimal conditions).

As standard it would have the Spo-10 RWR (Same as Mig-21Bis)

 

 

(Though if i remember correctly they talked about adding the Spo-15 and maybe even R-73 missile as optional upgrades but i could be wrong).

 

 

So the Mig-23MLA will be a significant disadvantage in a modern Scenarios against a F-18 and F-16 with Aim-120s, Aim-9X and Datalink etc.

 

 

It would have to rely on its acceleration and high speed and use ambush tactics doing quick hit and run attacks

 

(Preferebly with GCI / Awacs to help guide you to the target).

 

 

In a cold war scenarios (With no Aim-120,Aim-9X or helmet mounted sights etc) it would do a bit better as its weapons were Ok for the time.

 

It is up to mission creators to make the time frame that suits the mission , weapons can always be restricted to AIM-7/AIM-9.

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Though the Mig-23 and F-4 are far more comparable then

 

the Mig-21 and F-4 or Mig-23 and Mirage 2000 are.

 

(The Mig-21 is closer to a Mirage III or F-104 in terms of Capabilities / performance)

 

 

 

But yea of the aircraft ingame the Mirage 2000 is probably closest to the Mig-23MLA (No Fox-3 only 2 BVR missiles etc)

Though the Mirage 2000 is far more nimble and has a better Radar and RWR which gives it much better situational awareness

(Though hopefully they will model the Mig-23MLA's Lazur Datalink which should give it a kind of SA)


Edited by mattebubben
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Yeah, the closest thing actually in DCS for the mig23 will be the M2k. Once you get the F14A in game, that will be period correct, but still will greatly outclass the mig23. If the mig can get to the merge then it might have a chance. Hopefully the F4E will come soon.

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How much of a threat is the MIG23 MLA to the more modern F18 and F16 that we currently have in DCS?

Thanks

 

You need a GCI to guide you. You are a pilot who is tasked important position in the whole defense, and you need to obey what the GCI tells you as they have the overall picture what is happening. The GCI knows when enemy launch missiles at you, they guide you through the dog fights that what is happening and how you should fly before even the bogey is doing its maneuver etc.

 

The MiG-23MLA is seriously underpowered as it was very serious threat to everything in the early 80's when it came out. But because it didn't anymore receive upgrades to systems etc, it did fall far behind the very modern F-16C Block 50 and latest F/A-18C Lot 20 variants. Those are designed to require pilot to manage more of the whole aircraft, understand the complex situation in the air and on the ground, and solve complex tasks in their minds under heavy stress, eventually they are responsible to engage any target that is it a friend or foe, while in Soviet GCI style GCI always knew who is friend and who is not as they kept track of everything (you were not allowed to engage targets that GCI can't see, and they basically saw everything, but just in case that you don't go engage a friend).

 

The missiles the MiG-23MLA has are better than AIM-7, and depends do they get it modeled you can do nice tactics with them.

 

The MiG-23MLA doesn't even have a radar scope like MiG-21. First to project the radar on HUD. So that you see your contacts on it, making it more possible for you to keep eyes out of the cockpit instead playing with displays inside cockpit.

 

What comes to turning fights, the MiG-23MLA is not so great as MiG-23MLD, that got good revision to its aerodynamics. And it is little similar like a F-14 is to those others. But not such slow speed noise pointer but you dont't want to go for a turning fight with it if you can't quickly the solution to enemy and so on just extend away. As you can't change your wings angle when in turning, that makes serious limitation for turning fights. But as you can accelerate faster than F-16, you can outrun it, you turn even better than F-4 or F-16A in some given altitudes and speeds, you can even climb faster than F-15 itself (heck, even Harrier has better climb rate than F-15C up to 12 000 feets IIRC).

 

But this is now the problem that RedFor has only the top of the class aircrafts from the 80's, while BlueFor has from early-mid 2000. There is about 20 years cap between (and no, I don't count JF-17 as full REDFOR aircraft).

 

In multiplayer you should get the MiG-23MLA operate under a human GCI that will lead waves of you against target. You come fast in, launch missiles, turn away and run. And the time the enemy starts to recover from that attack, the second wave comes in and attack, turn away and flee. And the GCI job is to keep you in safe, so when they tell you to turn away, you turn away as they see that missiles is launched against you and they protect you.

 

So what it will be, is that MiG-23MLA is fast and agile, but it lacks the pure power and unless performing tactics correctly, you die quickly in it against those modern fighters. Not so quickly as MiG-21Bis does, but still about there.

 

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Please keep in mind, we are getting an MiG-23MLA, not a MiG-23MS. Alot of statements in this thread are thus not relatable to what we get.

 

The N003 radar of the MLA was rather capable for its time and not to be compared with the radar we know from the MiG-21bis (and MiG-23MS). Detection ranges are said to be 55km against a fighter sized target above and 25km below horizon. The radar can automatically switch modes to the most suitable for the own and scanned altitude and has a range of different PRF available.

 

Regarding the RWR, it was already stated that we will get both the SPO-10 and SPO-15, as latter was a frequent update to the MLA.

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Looked up S-23E and your right it does have multiple PRF modes, must be something I heard on the big MLA thread. It does seem pretty complex, and without GCI will take a lot to master. Radar illumination of a heat source is pretty cool....

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Biggest issue with it will be that fuselage. It's not a lifting body design like a lot of modern aircraft, so I expect even with the forward sweep she'll bleed energy rather quickly in comparison to other aircraft during high AoA and be more unstable. The best part of it all, though.....

 

 

Is we'll get to find out ;)

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Please keep in mind, we are getting an MiG-23MLA, not a MiG-23MS. Alot of statements in this thread are thus not relatable to what we get.

 

The N003 radar of the MLA was rather capable for its time and not to be compared with the radar we know from the MiG-21bis (and MiG-23MS). Detection ranges are said to be 55km against a fighter sized target above and 25km below horizon. The radar can automatically switch modes to the most suitable for the own and scanned altitude and has a range of different PRF available.

 

THe question was not that how great the MiG-23MLA was at the time it got out, but how capable it is against a F-16C Block 50 and F/A-18C Lot20...

 

As I said: "The MiG-23MLA is seriously underpowered as it was very serious threat to everything in the early 80's when it came out."

 

So it was great at the time ('78-'82) but completely old compared to those two fighters we have in DCS from 2000.

 

So while it has very good radar for its purpose at that time, it just has no match as overall aircraft against those modern multirole fighters.

 

We need more of the western aircrafts from 1975-1982 to get it shine.

 

 

Regarding the RWR, it was already stated that we will get both the SPO-10 and SPO-15, as latter was a frequent update to the MLA.

 

That likely be a setting in SPECIAL tab in settings?

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Biggest issue with it will be that fuselage. It's not a lifting body design like a lot of modern aircraft, so I expect even with the forward sweep she'll bleed energy rather quickly in comparison to other aircraft during high AoA and be more unstable.

 

High speed ain't everything in the turning fight.

But I wouldn't take MiG-23MLA against F-14 either.

 

But one of the major things that will definitely put MiG-23MLA in great disadvantage is the lack of HMS. It would have helped a lot of that aircraft if it could just have been fitted nicely to the cockpit (that they couldn't).

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High speed ain't everything in the turning fight.

But I wouldn't take MiG-23MLA against F-14 either.

 

But one of the major things that will definitely put MiG-23MLA in great disadvantage is the lack of HMS. It would have helped a lot of that aircraft if it could just have been fitted nicely to the cockpit (that they couldn't).

 

I didn't say it was, speed = energy however. If you can't maintain your speed, aka energy, to a point, then you end up unable to maneuver and moving very slowly or stalling outright. A lifting body design doesn't have such severe problems with that and can generally maintain higher AoA, thus them largely supplanting designs like the MiG-23.

 

It's not a bad aircraft against the F-4 or F-5, which I expect it would handily outperform, but against slightly more modern designs like the early teen fighters that were entering service alongside it, it was pretty much obsolete as soon as it arrived, even with the extensive redesigns it received to extend service life. That's why when the MiG-29 appeared they more or less dumped the MiG-23 enmasse or sold en to the 3rd world. They just weren't up to par anymore.

 

I think it will surprise the unwary WVR, but it will rarely live long enough to get that close in the current environment, and will still be badly disadvantaged even then.


Edited by zhukov032186

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On the Cold War server though I bet there will be a fair share of people slinging R-24 at 12,000 meters and Mach 2 getting crazy range.

 

I love all MiGs, but I love the 21 more. But I won’t be able to resist the speed, sensors and missiles, it’s like a poor mans MiG-25, as nonsensical as that sounds. I’m sure it’ll have its own ground attack users, not a BN or 27 but with UB32 pods and other assorted Soviet ground attack ordinance, it’ll be very good at Viggen style attacks utilizing its speed at low altitude. I wonder if it can go supersonic down low? I know the 21 is limited to subsonic speeds below 15,000 feet

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THe question was not that how great the MiG-23MLA was at the time it got out, but how capable it is against a F-16C Block 50 and F/A-18C Lot20...

 

My comment was more targeted to the Mirage comparison. But yes against those fighters from at least 30 years later, it will not have a chance. Same for a Tomcat, which in its A version is more or less from the same time.

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Stated previously that SPO-15 is optional and countermeasures dispensers are part of the loadout. As for interdiction - yes its supersonic on the deck, and also it has a remote-controlled hat-switch steered A-G missile.

Comparing it to MiG-25 - its a newer platform, with a better radar(25's were later upgraded with the 23's radar's derivative), has better BVR missiles, though only two comparing to 25's four. And of course it can dogfight while 25 is a drag racer only. Initial MiG-25's radar was pulse without look-down, comparable to first phantom-2's, still having an impressive range for its time, only on high altitude.

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The Cubans had a very good experience using the MIG-23ML in Angola vs South Africans Mirage F1.

 

As many people stated here, the use of GCI is mandatory for Russian airplanes in the 60s, 70s and early 80s. But the Cubans managed to fight the Mirage F1 many times without losses. They even damaged a C-130 of the CIA, which they used to deliver weapons to UNITA rebel group and shot down another one.

 

I quote to author Ruben Urribarres:

 

"With the escalation of the conflict at the end of 1987, air fighting begins with the South African SAAF's Mirage F1. On September 27, 1987, the Cuban MiG-23ML piloted by Major Alberto Ley Rivas, and his wingman, First Lieutenant Juan Carlos Chavez Godoy, take off to CAP a helicopter rescue mission through the Cuito Cuanavale area, when they receive the warning of the GCI, that two South African fighters penetrate Angolan airspace heading north.

 

They were two Mirage F1CZ of the SAAF 3rd Squadron, piloted by Commander Leader Carlo Gaggiano and his wingman Captain Arthur Piercy. The MiG-23ML follow the radar indications to intercept the Mirages, approaching from the front. The Chavez's MiG-23ML radar locked the first Mirage F1 at 12 km, but cannot fire its medium-range R-24R missile, as both pairs of fighters turned, and from its position the Rivas MiG-23ML remained ahead (Rivas carried only short-range missiles R-60MK -AA-8 Aphid-).

 

The two pairs of fighters merged, and turn horizontally to stand on each other's tail. However, the MiG-23ML has clear superiority of maneuver over the inert Mirage F1, and its turning radius is smaller. In a few seconds Rivas manages to get in the tail of Mirage F1CZ SAAF-206 of Piercy, and shoots an R-60MK at 300 meters distance, which explodes in its tail. Chavez and the GCI shouted excitedly confirming the impact. It was 2:36 p.m. The other Mirage, seeing the fate of his companion, abruptly stings to the ground, and leaves the combat in a flush to Namibia. The MiG-23ML consider the first Mirage shot down, and try to chase the second plane, but they were already at the fuel limit, returning to base.

 

Piercy was able to get out of the fight but damaged, it stings to the ground to go unnoticed, and at full speed he goes to his airfield in Rundu, Namibia. The R-60MK missile exploded near the nozzle, damaging the wings and rudders, the parachute broke off, but the worst part was that the hydraulic system, which powers the controls, was seriously damaged, and began to fail. Piercy barely controls his Mirage F1CZ, and when trying to land he leaves the track, crashes losing the train. From the blow the catapult shot up, Piercy's parachute has no time to open, and it hits the ground. As a result Piercy seriously damages the spine and becomes invalid. His Mirage F1CZ 206 is discharged and was cannibalized to fix the Mirage F1 205. For years South Africa concealed the loss by combat of this Mirage, describing it as an accident, although today it recognizes that the cause of that supposed accident was the combat with Rivas."

 

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/EqMiG23aa-e.html

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Stated previously that SPO-15 is optional and countermeasures dispensers are part of the loadout. As for interdiction - yes its supersonic on the deck, and also it has a remote-controlled hat-switch steered A-G missile.

Comparing it to MiG-25 - its a newer platform, with a better radar(25's were later upgraded with the 23's radar's derivative), has better BVR missiles, though only two comparing to 25's four. And of course it can dogfight while 25 is a drag racer only. Initial MiG-25's radar was pulse without look-down, comparable to first phantom-2's, still having an impressive range for its time, only on high altitude.

 

My understanding of the MiG-25 is it was designed in response to observations of ECM usage in the Vietnam era. The radar was never intended to be particularly long range, just extremely powerful to burn through ECM.

 

I saw a chart once listing the wattage and effective ranges of a variety of aircraft radars. Many of them were much longer range, as far as search capability went, but the MiG-25's wattage was absolutely ridiculous compared to all the others. The plane would be vectored into the area and the intensity of the radar would allow it to detect and launch, no matter how intense the ECM. The range was juuuust enough to use its weapons, no more, no less.

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My understanding of the MiG-25 is it was designed in response to observations of ECM usage in the Vietnam era. The radar was never intended to be particularly long range, just extremely powerful to burn through ECM.

 

I saw a chart once listing the wattage and effective ranges of a variety of aircraft radars. Many of them were much longer range, as far as search capability went, but the MiG-25's wattage was absolutely ridiculous compared to all the others. The plane would be vectored into the area and the intensity of the radar would allow it to detect and launch, no matter how intense the ECM. The range was juuuust enough to use its weapons, no more, no less.

 

 

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Edited by Harlikwin

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My understanding of the MiG-25 is it was designed in response to observations of ECM usage in the Vietnam era. The radar was never intended to be particularly long range, just extremely powerful to burn through ECM.

 

I saw a chart once listing the wattage and effective ranges of a variety of aircraft radars. Many of them were much longer range, as far as search capability went, but the MiG-25's wattage was absolutely ridiculous compared to all the others. The plane would be vectored into the area and the intensity of the radar would allow it to detect and launch, no matter how intense the ECM. The range was juuuust enough to use its weapons, no more, no less.

 

I read somewhere that the MiG-25 radar was around 600 kiloWatts bursts, capable to burn through anything there was. Considering that a ground radars were around 30 KiloWatts, you had nothing in the ECM scale that could have jammed that radar. But you were as well very well known where you are.

 

But you got long range with it as well.

 

IIRC it was around 900W that was required to generate those pulses, and in MiG-31 you had 1.3kW pulses, generating even far more stronger radar.

 

Comparing that to AWG-9/APG-71(V):

 

10 kW peak power

7 kW pulse-doppler

500W in pulse mode.

 

Considering that Zaslon-M can detect fighter at around 350 km range and engage at below 300 km, it is very serious radar for MiG-31. Very difficult to jam or try to hide from those as they burn through or receive the minimal returns.


Edited by Fri13

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The Cubans had a very good experience using the MIG-23ML in Angola vs South Africans Mirage F1.

 

As many people stated here, the use of GCI is mandatory for Russian airplanes in the 60s, 70s and early 80s. But the Cubans managed to fight the Mirage F1 many times without losses. They even damaged a C-130 of the CIA, which they used to deliver weapons to UNITA rebel group and shot down another one.

 

I quote to author Ruben Urribarres:

 

"With the escalation of the conflict at the end of 1987, air fighting begins with the South African SAAF's Mirage F1. On September 27, 1987, the Cuban MiG-23ML piloted by Major Alberto Ley Rivas, and his wingman, First Lieutenant Juan Carlos Chavez Godoy, take off to CAP a helicopter rescue mission through the Cuito Cuanavale area, when they receive the warning of the GCI, that two South African fighters penetrate Angolan airspace heading north.

 

They were two Mirage F1CZ of the SAAF 3rd Squadron, piloted by Commander Leader Carlo Gaggiano and his wingman Captain Arthur Piercy. The MiG-23ML follow the radar indications to intercept the Mirages, approaching from the front. The Chavez's MiG-23ML radar locked the first Mirage F1 at 12 km, but cannot fire its medium-range R-24R missile, as both pairs of fighters turned, and from its position the Rivas MiG-23ML remained ahead (Rivas carried only short-range missiles R-60MK -AA-8 Aphid-).

 

The two pairs of fighters merged, and turn horizontally to stand on each other's tail. However, the MiG-23ML has clear superiority of maneuver over the inert Mirage F1, and its turning radius is smaller. In a few seconds Rivas manages to get in the tail of Mirage F1CZ SAAF-206 of Piercy, and shoots an R-60MK at 300 meters distance, which explodes in its tail. Chavez and the GCI shouted excitedly confirming the impact. It was 2:36 p.m. The other Mirage, seeing the fate of his companion, abruptly stings to the ground, and leaves the combat in a flush to Namibia. The MiG-23ML consider the first Mirage shot down, and try to chase the second plane, but they were already at the fuel limit, returning to base.

 

Piercy was able to get out of the fight but damaged, it stings to the ground to go unnoticed, and at full speed he goes to his airfield in Rundu, Namibia. The R-60MK missile exploded near the nozzle, damaging the wings and rudders, the parachute broke off, but the worst part was that the hydraulic system, which powers the controls, was seriously damaged, and began to fail. Piercy barely controls his Mirage F1CZ, and when trying to land he leaves the track, crashes losing the train. From the blow the catapult shot up, Piercy's parachute has no time to open, and it hits the ground. As a result Piercy seriously damages the spine and becomes invalid. His Mirage F1CZ 206 is discharged and was cannibalized to fix the Mirage F1 205. For years South Africa concealed the loss by combat of this Mirage, describing it as an accident, although today it recognizes that the cause of that supposed accident was the combat with Rivas."

 

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/EqMiG23aa-e.html

 

Yes, MiG-23 performed quite well Vs Mirage F1 CZ. MiG-23 engine is more powerful.

 

But Mirage F1 CZ didn't have access to latest weapons like Magic 2 and Super 530F which was more dangerous than R530.

 

But while turning with a MiG-23 in Mirage F1 may not be a good idea, Mirage 2000 is another thing.

I wouldn't want to turn with a Mirage 2000 in a MiG-23.:smilewink:


Edited by jojo

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