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Case I: How to respond to pitch up from flaps?


San Patricio

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IMO it's generally better in the long run to learn the correct procedure and work on your technique than try to come up with a technique that works for the wrong procedure.

 

Just going to footstomp this. Procedure vs. technique is something the instructors in any military flight training program (in the US, at least) will pound into you. You can learn different techniques to accomplish the same procedure, but you have to perform the procedure correctly in terms of the configuration, parameters, order of steps, etc. Obviously there are no negative consequences in DCS aside from crashing and having to get a new aircraft, but if your goal is to fly realistically, then you shouldn't use improper technique as a crutch.

 

The procedures are doable if you learn to anticipate what your actions will do to the aircraft in time and space and stay ahead of that, i.e. to avoid pitch-up in the break, there is no requirement to use trim to stay level at 800 feet until you're ready to descend to 600. I regularly trim up for 3 seconds to get on-speed and then simply hold my stick forward as needed until the AOA bracket starts coming down to meet the velocity vector.

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Just going to footstomp this. Procedure vs. technique is something the instructors in any military flight training program (in the US, at least) will pound into you. You can learn different techniques to accomplish the same procedure, but you have to perform the procedure correctly in terms of the configuration, parameters, order of steps, etc. Obviously there are no negative consequences in DCS aside from crashing and having to get a new aircraft, but if your goal is to fly realistically, then you shouldn't use improper technique as a crutch.

 

The procedures are doable if you learn to anticipate what your actions will do to the aircraft in time and space and stay ahead of that, i.e. to avoid pitch-up in the break, there is no requirement to use trim to stay level at 800 feet until you're ready to descend to 600. I regularly trim up for 3 seconds to get on-speed and then simply hold my stick forward as needed until the AOA bracket starts coming down to meet the velocity vector.

 

By footstomp I assume you mean disagree? But where does what I say disagree with your view?! Seems like we're on the same page.

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Real video.

Gear down and flaps full - at the same time.

There are no (I do not see) big movements of throttle and stick in the same time ...and there is NO lift!

 

Yeah but that's not gospel. Just because you don't see big throttle movements doesn't mean all pilots fly smoothly in. Also, this video is your definition of "no big throttle movements"? They look pretty big to me so for those of you that have the impression that landing case 1 is always smooth once you have everything set, you are mistaken. The bottom line here is that all these pilots do whatever they need to do to land the plane. They don't all demonstrate text book technique. They demonstrate *their* technique which also changes depending on the conditions.

 

Fly the plane and don't sweat perfection until you're good enough to. :thumbup:

 

This does raise a good question though; In training, are Naval Aviators trained on doing correct carrier landings before they are taught the pattern? I'd guess they're taught the carrier landings first so no matter what happens when practicing their pattern they can at least land the jet. This seems to make sense to me.

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.. In training, are Naval Aviators trained on doing correct carrier landings before they are taught the pattern? I'd guess they're taught the carrier landings first so no matter what happens when practicing their pattern they can at least land the jet. This seems to make sense to me. ..

What I think to see is that all fighter jet pilots that are the core crew on the boat are able to do the very short (rather perilous) 'abeam the stern, hard break, dirty up in the break'. There is so much risk involved in this rather acrobatic maneuver one would think the selection for carrier pilots is already made in training (when they're flying the Northrop T-38 trainer jet with a hook).

Already in training one will be able to see, first land based and after some time when these trainee pilots are invited over for a spell of actual carrier training, which one of all those eager beavers make the cut, which no doubt is few and far between.

The YouTube video's you see of any FA-18 pilot whether flying perfect numbers or the ones who seem rodeo bull riders, made the cut and all of these chaps (and the incidental girl) already are the cream of the crop (and then again the best of class of this selection, these days will be moved to the F-35 platform, and the very best of the best are invited to undergo astronaut training).

The selection can't be otherwise, if one thinks about it, because carrier flying simply is too dangerous.

It's Darwin's meritocracy materialized before your eyes out of pure necessity (and the tremendous attraction of the sport, which provides for the necessary selection pool).


Edited by majapahit

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By footstomp I assume you mean disagree? But where does what I say disagree with your view?! Seems like we're on the same page.

 

Seemed the same to me to Squirrel, not sure why he's "footstomping" your comment.

 

In the military it's common for instructors to literally stomp their foot for the most important information in lectures, basically like saying, "hey wake up and write this down." He was agreeing with you

 

This does raise a good question though; In training, are Naval Aviators trained on doing correct carrier landings before they are taught the pattern? I'd guess they're taught the carrier landings first so no matter what happens when practicing their pattern they can at least land the jet. This seems to make sense to me.

 

You can't fly the ball unless you show up to a good start, as the ball will literally just not be there. If you even start with the ball off center you're already putting yourself in a bad spot. You're taught the pattern and how to fly right away, and how to fly the ball is largely trial and error since every instructor has their own techniques.

 

What I think to see is that all fighter jet pilots that are the core crew on the boat are able to do the very short (rather perilous) 'abeam the stern, hard break, dirty up in the break'. There is so much risk involved in this rather acrobatic maneuver one would think the selection for carrier pilots is already made in training (when they're flying the Northrop T-38 trainer jet with a hook).

Already in training one will be able to see, first land based and after some time when these trainee pilots are invited over for a spell of actual carrier training, which one of all those eager beavers make the cut, which no doubt is few and far between.

The YouTube video's you see of any FA-18 pilot whether flying perfect numbers or the ones who seem rodeo bull riders, made the cut and all of these chaps (and the incidental girl) already are the cream of the crop (and then again the best of class of this selection, these days will be moved to the F-35 platform, and the very best of the best are invited to undergo astronaut training).

The selection can't be otherwise, if one thinks about it, because carrier flying simply is too dangerous.

It's Darwin's meritocracy materialized before your eyes out of pure necessity (and the tremendous attraction of the sport, which provides for the necessary selection pool).

 

T-45C is the aircraft used for Naval training. Usually 80-90% pass the boat their first time- a testament to the training program and the student's malleability to be able to adapt to a totally new environment with no freebie passes. The boat flies vastly different than the field in nearly every aspect. You also don't select to be an astronaut out of training, that's usually after a distinguished career first.

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.. T-45C is the aircraft used for Naval training. Usually 80-90% pass the boat their first time ..

sure but what % then after get assigned to F-18 or these days F-35?

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sure but what % then after get assigned to F-18 or these days F-35?

 

Depends on the slots available. There's only 1 operational F-35 squadron, so you can be an absolute unit and go to a growler squadron even, or you can be a little above average and get a 35 if they need someone that week.

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Depends on the slots available. There's only 1 operational F-35 squadron, so you can be an absolute unit and go to a growler squadron even, or you can be a little above average and get a 35 if they need someone that week.

"The U.S. Naval Academy Class of 2019 had 16,101 applicants and admitted 1,191. If history proves accurate 1,100 will graduate in three years. Of those, 240 will select Navy pilot and 80 will enter jet training. By the time the Class of 2019 reaches the fleet, maybe 50 will be fighter pilots. (So, for every 1,000 applicants to the Class of 2019, 3 will become a fighter pilot.)"

 

50 of 320 graduates that choose "Navy pilot" makes for 1:6 or about 16% of flight school year. Mind you 50 of 16101 applicants, most of whom will have self selected by the 'I think I might be able to do this', of this 50 fighter pilots is 0.31%, which is 3 and something out of a 1000 with a dream of soaring through the atmosphere within a thing that can kill.

 

Of Academy pilot graduates 50 out of 1192 (with 92 dropouts) makes for 4.1% which seems to be the biggest selector.

 

Apparently specifically 50 of 80 who finally make it into "jet training" will actually end up in a "jet" which is another 38% cut (and no doubt the harshest one of the 'I came so close' kind).


Edited by majapahit

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This does raise a good question though; In training, are Naval Aviators trained on doing correct carrier landings before they are taught the pattern?

 

I'm guessing they've landed the airplane consistently, have gotten comfortable with the Power Approach concept, have sat through carrier pattern academics and then successfully conducted (and passed) flying the ball during Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) way before ever going to the boat.

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sure but what % then after get assigned to F-18 or these days F-35?

 

If you're a Marine training in the T-45C, you will only go to a pointy-nose jet. SNAs are still selecting legacy F/A-18s and AV-8Bs, with the number of slots for the F-35 slowly but steadily growing in proportion to the other two.

 

The only people who don't go to a fighter are Navy E-2/C-2 students. Nowadays, though, they know that's where they're heading as opposed to decades past when you selected "Tailhook," went to the T-45 for Intermediate Jet, then stayed in it for Advanced Strike or went to the T-44 for Advanced Multi-engine.

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I'm guessing they've landed the airplane consistently, have gotten comfortable with the Power Approach concept, have sat through carrier pattern academics and then successfully conducted (and passed) flying the ball during Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) way before ever going to the boat.

“ .. All pilots are officers. To become an officer in the Navy, you are required to have a college education. Typically pilots are bachelors of science in any of the STEM field.

.. you will be commissioned the rank of Ensign first. There are a few ways to accomplish this. One is to enroll in a Naval Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) program at a civilian college, which will allow you to attend military classes and drills in addition to a regular college curriculum

.. (with a ) a bachelor’s degree, you can go to Officer Candidate School, an intensive 12-week crash course in military studies held at the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla. .. swim a great deal as part of an intensive physical conditioning program (WTH .. :) ), and learn the basics of naval propulsion.

.. (only after this one can apply for) U.S. Naval Academy

.. you are required to take 25 hours of instruction at a certified flight school, completing at least three solo flights, one of them cross-country

.. For six weeks, you’ll study aerodynamics, aviation physiology, engines and navigation in a classroom .. you’ll have spent more than 100 hours aloft in the T-34 or in flight simulators

.. you’ll progress to the T-45 Goshawk for hands-on training .. more than 100 hours”

 

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/becoming-a-navy-pilot-3354833

 

After this the public record stops for no doubt here is where instructor assessment and the dark forces of NAVY career management starts, where the highest echelons of military brass are mostly adherents of Thomas Hobbes and his publication “Leviathan”, the Christ and Bible of the USA military culture, the weeding of the chaff on God’s orders. And damn you sinners.

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I'm guessing they've landed the airplane consistently, have gotten comfortable with the Power Approach concept, have sat through carrier pattern academics and then successfully conducted (and passed) flying the ball during Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) way before ever going to the boat.

 

That is correct.

 

That said, the flow of T-45 Intermediate/Advanced is a little different than Primary. You actually start out with Basic Instruments and Radio Instruments flying from the backseat, and the IP does all of the takeoffs and landings. Then you go into Familiarization phase where from Day 1 every pattern and landing you do is like a trap at the boat, including use of the field IFLOLS and painted "carrier box" on the runway. Carrier Qualification is actually pretty late in the game. You might have already completed Tactical Formation, Low Levels, and BFM/ACM all before heading to the boat for real. It all depends on the timing of where you are in the syllabus and when a carrier is available for the clown jets to do their thing. Point being that the carrier-style pattern and landing are completely second-nature by the time students get to CQs.

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“All pilots are officers. To become an officer in the Navy, you are required to have a college education. Typically pilots are bachelors of science in any of the STEM field.

.. you are required to take 25 hours of instruction at a certified flight school, completing at least three solo flights, one of them cross-country

.. For six weeks, you’ll study aerodynamics, aviation physiology, engines and navigation in a classroom .. you’ll have spent more than 100 hours aloft in the T-34 or in flight simulators

 

That information is a little out of date. For the benefit of any DCS players with more than a passing intrigue for seeking the Wings of Gold -

 

1. Folks with STEM degrees are actually a small minority in the pilot ranks these days. Just based on show of hands in every academic class I've had in flight school, maybe only 10-20% had a technical degree of any kind. Fewer than 10% engineers, for sure. My degree is in history and the academics haven't been a problem whatsoever because the material is written for any college-educated individual to understand.

 

2. IFS is now half that length for Navy and Marine students. I soloed at 13.5 hours and only once. 25 hours and a cross-country is only a requirement for Coast Guard students.

 

3. The T-34 has been retired since 2011. Primary training is now conducted in the T-6B Texan II, a very high-performance turboprop with an ejection seat, HUD (that never works), glass cockpit, and airliner-style FMS (with only non-precision RNAV capability, sadly). Incredibly fun aircraft, with a better navigation suite than all of the other Navy trainers and many fleet aircraft.

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"The U.S. Naval Academy Class of 2019 had 16,101 applicants and admitted 1,191. If history proves accurate 1,100 will graduate in three years. Of those, 240 will select Navy pilot and 80 will enter jet training. By the time the Class of 2019 reaches the fleet, maybe 50 will be fighter pilots. (So, for every 1,000 applicants to the Class of 2019, 3 will become a fighter pilot.)"

 

50 of 320 graduates that choose "Navy pilot" makes for 1:6 or about 16% of flight school year. Mind you 50 of 16101 applicants, most of whom will have self selected by the 'I think I might be able to do this', of this 50 fighter pilots is 0.31%, which is 3 and something out of a 1000 with a dream of soaring through the atmosphere within a thing that can kill.

 

Of Academy pilot graduates 50 out of 1192 (with 92 dropouts) makes for 4.1% which seems to be the biggest selector.

 

Apparently specifically 50 of 80 who finally make it into "jet training" will actually end up in a "jet" which is another 38% cut (and no doubt the harshest one of the 'I came so close' kind).

 

 

I was more referring to the actual students that go to the boat. Yes, the vast majority do not go jets, however the reason usually isn't just that they can't, in fact many that do get the grades decide to go another route because it's a lot easier on your personal life (and more beneficial to your wallet), and much lower stress.

 

And to add on Chuck's post, you'd be surprised how many poly sci, art, and English degrees are walking around jet land too. STEM is good for a resume, but they want grit and tenacity more than anything else.

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.. the reason usually isn't just that they can't, in fact many that do get the grades decide to go another route because it's a lot easier on your personal life (and more beneficial to your wallet), and much lower stress. ..

'Lower stress ' and such, that's the student version of a given motive (eh, excuse).

 

From a management and human resource perspective, from an instructor and recruitment perspective where the product output is “slots”,

 

such 'it's a lot easier .. and much lower stress' are the 'they can't’ ‘nope’ ‘write off’ ‘not motivated enough’ ‘slacker‘ ‘weak’ ‘uninspired’ ‘we don’t want these’ 'not driven enough' 'unfit' checkbox categories, isn't it (I am of the old school).

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such 'it's a lot easier .. and much lower stress' are the 'they can't’ ‘nope’ ‘write off’ ‘not motivated enough’ ‘slacker‘ ‘weak’ ‘uninspired’ ‘we don’t want these’ 'not driven enough' 'unfit' checkbox categories, isn't it

LOL,

No, it's an indication that some 'Well balanced‘, ‘good prospects’, ‘highly motivated’, ‘high achieving‘, ‘determined’, ‘driven’ people, that still have a very promising career in the forces ahead of them, and that the Navy still sees as valuable recruits that they want to retain, have a different - on the whole probably more balanced - view of what constitutes a life well lived than some other people...

Cheers.

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Real video.

Gear down and flaps full - at the same time.

There are no (I do not see) big movements of throttle and stick in the same time ...and there is NO lift!

 

F-18 superhornet, and they have a new landing system, very automated.

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LOL,

No, it's an indication that some 'Well balanced‘, ‘good prospects’, ‘highly motivated’, ‘high achieving‘, ‘determined’, ‘driven’ people, that still have a very promising career in the forces ahead of them, and that the Navy still sees as valuable recruits that they want to retain, have a different - on the whole probably more balanced - view of what constitutes a life well lived than some other people...

I see you are chiming in from Wellington NZ, mr. Weta43, you antipodes, you the weak of heart who have massive forests of ferns in your environmental protection programs (what the hell is that about, I ask not seriously),

 

such girly inclinations do not fit in with the harsh Spartan and manly (FA-18 girl pilots are no doubt considered to be of men substance), perhaps unspoken but very much observed to, self-willed selective process and tapping into the order of the USA military officers club, the NAVY and marines an especially wilful bunch, who think the open seas are theirs to inflict order upon any designated trespasser, rightfully so or not, not to be questioned.

 

Perhaps in Wellington the Viking has been bred out of you, I suggest not so much in the America of an admiral Chester W. Nimitz or a general Norman Schwarzkopf Jr, who would gladly eat you for breakfast if told to do so (whatever you might think of that on a more academic level, which on this subject matter has no value whatsoever).


Edited by majapahit

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Are you writing comedy in all your post ?

(Weirdly off topic comedy to boot..)

Perhaps parodying 15th century Javan attitudes ?

 

Back to the topic...

Personally, it seems to me that from videos IRL some pilots’ techniques involve stick and throttle movements to control the nose that wouldn’t be out of place in DCS as I end up flying it, & as long as you preemptively trim for AoA & use the stick, the plane is relatively easy to keep under control..

Cheers.

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"Perhaps in Wellington the Viking has been bred out of you,"

'Vikings', those wimps ? I personally am descended from cannibal natives of the region.

 

 

 

Most of our environmental protection is actually at sea - because oceanic species travel far to breed.

 

 

An we have an 'Air Force' with no force to it. The first duty of government is national defense and the proceeds of the tax slaves should be spent on other things after internal and external security are looked after - but that swindle of the political class is not unique to the Antipodes.

 

 

On topic: even on light aircraft 'ballooning' from extending flaps and 'sinking' when retracting are very prominent effects you learn to anticipate. So too with the Hornet and its best to be under 200 kts IAS as other posters have started.

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we have an 'Air Force' with no force to it

True, but only 4 years till we have something with a combat radius of 2,200 km + 4 hours on station & that is capable of delivering AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER, AGM-84 Harpoon, Mark 54 torpedo, missiles, mines, torpedoes, & assorted bombs...

That'll cover some ocean..

Cheers.

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Something peculiar is going on in New Zealand, calling out Vikings as wimps I'd say cannot be historically accurate in our days of effeminate men (I met some Maori men in a hotel bar when once upon a time in NZ, and indeed these where quite the fighting breed, I can witness to that, considered to be the Viking of the Pacific perhaps and in NZ rugby), and repetitiously stating the obvious indeed gives room to wider reflection I'd say.

By the way that certain video sequence starts with throttle cut, hence the proper level flight dirtying up as I mentioned before (I checked it).


Edited by majapahit

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