RalfiDude's F-14 Video

Not a bad idea. But the real trick is to estimate how much of a cost would those 23's represent for the side employing them :thumbup:

As in, the ratio of dollar per (insert operating country currency) and/or the percentage of that amount in the country's GDP or GNP.

 

EDIT: to clarify, just maybe, not only could the US afford more 14's then the other side 23's, but 23's made in the US would be more expensive then if made abroad.

 

My idea was about a symmetric US vs USSR confrontation, considering a more or less equal military budget. The internet says that soviet GDP was less than half of US GDP, but they have overcome that problem cleverly, by using almost 20% of their GDP for military spending :smilewink: (all random internet sources).

Let’s not over complicate this, just simply x dollar worth of Tomcat vs x dollar worth of MiG.

I would add another aspect: let's say we get a 1 F-14 to 4 MiG-23 ratio. How many pilots in a Flight of 4 MiG will turn around and flee, after 2 or 3 of their wingmen have been taken out during BVR? It requires quite a nerve to keep your cool, knowing full well you only favor the odds by numbers. Effectively you know your chance of surviving is 1 out of 4?

 

That is a valid point, but for the sake of this experiment I would suggest that these MiG drivers are well trained, experienced and they are thoroughly briefed on the capabilities of the F-14 and the AIM-54. (Otherwise you’d need to find half a squadron of serious DCS simmers in 202x that never flew the F-14... unlikely :) )

 

If they know, what they are facing, they would probably try to use tactics that make it difficult for the Cats to kill them at safe ranges. (beaming, baiting shots then turning cold to waste missiles, approaching at vastly different altitudes, directions, etc, etc). There would be losses of course, but it shouldn’t be head first against the wall...

...MiG drivers are well trained, experienced and they are thoroughly briefed on the capabilities of the F-14 and the AIM-54...

 

Soviet tactic means having more Migs than the US has AIM-54 :)

Soviet tactic means having more Migs than the US has AIM-54 :)

 

Truth. And a lot of guys willing to die for the Motherland.

 

We know that a few were willing to deliver state of the art airplanes to the West instead...

If you consider the Foxbat to be state of the art. :)

 

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Old Viktor ended up with a nice life out of it, and the USSR even got their jet back. Belenko used to show up at Topgun from time to time for the special class “MiG Killer” debriefing. I guess he killed a MiG, in a sort of manner.

 

I met Alexander Zuyev at a Florida air show in the early 1990’s- a few people sort of set us up, and made a big deal about two enemy fighter pukes shaking hands, but he was simply there trying to sell his book. I liked him instantly.

 

Still had mixed emotions about Zuyev. He was an ebullient, enthusiastic guy, well versed in the American version of self-promotion. Very likeable. However, part of me resented that he had essentially committed treason against his country, but at the same time, he was committed enough to get shot, and still fly his jet while wounded, to escape the oppressive form of government. More to it than that, but it’s hard to fault someone for giving all of that the Big Finger as Belenko was wont to say, and blasting off to a new life.

 

I ended up buying his book while teasing him about how quickly he embraced being a greedy American capitalist. In other words, he won the fight. :)

 

Sadly, he died in an aerobatic aircraft accident, a Yak 52 I think. He was involved with IAC, and still loved flying.

Old Viktor ended up with a nice life out of it, and the USSR even got their jet back. Belenko used to show up at Topgun from time to time for the special class “MiG Killer” debriefing. I guess he killed a MiG, in a sort of manner.

 

I met Alexander Zuyev at a Florida air show in the early 1990’s- a few people sort of set us up, and made a big deal about two enemy fighter pukes shaking hands, but he was simply there trying to sell his book. I liked him instantly.

 

Still had mixed emotions about Zuyev. He was an ebullient, enthusiastic guy, well versed in the American version of self-promotion. Very likeable. However, part of me resented that he had essentially committed treason against his country, but at the same time, he was committed enough to get shot, and still fly his jet while wounded, to escape the oppressive form of government. More to it than that, but it’s hard to fault someone for giving all of that the Big Finger as Belenko was wont to say, and blasting off to a new life.

 

I ended up buying his book while teasing him about how quickly he embraced being a greedy American capitalist. In other words, he won the fight. :)

 

Sadly, he died in an aerobatic aircraft accident, a Yak 52 I think. He was involved with IAC, and still loved flying.

Ah. I had forgotten about Zuyev!

 

Is the book any good?

 

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If you consider the Foxbat to be state of the art. :)

 

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at the time yes. And the MiG-29 of the former DDR (German Democratic Republic) after the reunion were definitely a nice present for certain western military... and they came totally legal. ;)

I meant that the rumors concerning the capabilities of both MiGs were put to rest.

 

Capable, certainly, but neither were what I would consider to be the equal of the NATO fighters that were in service at the time.

 

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It was very weird to see a platform that was once shrouded in mystery and ephemeral images translate to sitting there on the ramp where you could touch it, shoot the breeze with it’s pilot, and enjoy it’s subsequent flight demonstration.

I meant that the rumors concerning the capabilities of both MiGs were put to rest.

 

Capable, certainly, but neither were what I would consider to be the equal of the NATO fighters that were in service at the time.

 

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Hmm, the German Luftwaffe Pilots had a different view, as far as I know. The MiG-29 were phased out because it was difficult at least to get supplies etc. from Russia... and the Jets did not fit into the overall NATO concept, but they were not inferior to their counterparts. They actually had advantages in terms of simplicity, when it came to maintenance and more resilient to rough and dirty conditions, so easier and likely cheaper to operate. Still they were extraordinary maneuverable and fast.

And they had operational HMD a decade before the US...

 

A nice read:

https://migflug.com/jetflights/german-luftwaffe-mig-29-fulcrum/

 

Edit: and keep in mind this was the old late 1980ies export MiG-29A...

Edited January 14, 2019 by shagrat

Both MiGs were very useful in their own way, but both possessed a common design flaw in that they lacked serious multi-role capability and were, in my (un)professional opinion, the result of a near perpetual Soviet myopia in regards to how much in the way of tech advancements should be given to a fighter aircraft.

 

The Foxbat was capable of high altitude flight at very high speeds, but was structurally unable to tolerate anything above a moderate G loading (about 4 or 5 Gs, I think). This more less pigeonholed it into reconnaissance or high altitude interception. Also, if memory serves, it's engines had poor performance at low speeds.

 

The Fulcrum was definitely a proverbial shot in the arm to eastern fighter design, but it too had a few glaring weaknesses. It's true the MiG-29 was very lethal in close with excellent agility and T/W, but it had poor range and lacked the advanced avionics of it's NATO counterparts. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the Germans had to de-tune it's RD-33s to extend their lifespan. Could be wrong about that one though.

 

Also yes, you're right, the article you linked was quite interesting.

 

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Hmm, the German Luftwaffe Pilots had a different view, as far as I know. The MiG-29 were phased out because it was difficult at least to get supplies etc. from Russia... and the Jets did not fit into the overall NATO concept, but they were not inferior to their counterparts. They actually had advantages in terms of simplicity, when it came to maintenance and more resilient to rough and dirty conditions, so easier and likely cheaper to operate. Still they were extraordinary maneuverable and fast.

And they had operational HMD a decade before the US...

 

A nice read:

https://migflug.com/jetflights/german-luftwaffe-mig-29-fulcrum/

 

Edit: and keep in mind this was the old late 1980ies export MiG-29A...

 

Navy had VTAS in the F4 in the seventies. Not sure how viable it was, especially given the missile gimbal limitations back then.

Navy had VTAS in the F4 in the seventies. Not sure how viable it was, especially given the missile gimbal limitations back then.

Likely so viable, that it took two decades to put it on an F-16 or F-18, again?

I am just linking to what guys tell us, that actually flew the MiG-29, a pretty old export version, against F-16 and F-15 in the 90ies... The bottom line seems to be, they were pretty much what I would call a challenge at closer ranges and by no means the inferior stone age clubs some people would like to think.

As always it seems it is good to know thy enemy and never underestimate him... :dunno:

at the time yes. And the MiG-29 of the former DDR (German Democratic Republic) after the reunion were definitely a nice present for certain western military... and they came totally legal. ;)

 

Good old times when Germany actually had a fighter jet... replaced by sitting ducks, literally

 

How do you shoot down a Eurofighter? You don't - just vulch 'em since they're on maintenance

 

The main advantage of the MiG-29 over the EF was that it could fly

 

TBH I like the EF, but as long as it's nothing more than a nice and utterly expensive showcase of how things could be if the money was actually there, one simply can't take it serious.

Good old times when Germany actually had a fighter jet... replaced by sitting ducks, literally

 

How do you shoot down a Eurofighter? You don't - just vulch 'em since they're on maintenance

 

The main advantage of the MiG-29 over the EF was that it could fly

 

TBH I like the EF, but as long as it's nothing more than a nice and utterly expensive showcase of how things could be if the money was actually there, one simply can't take it serious.

Actually a pity. The British version is much better, but still not what the Typhoon can be. If at one point we could combine Meteor, IRIS-T, Brimstone, ALARM, Paveway, Bombs, with thrustvectoring, the Captor 90 radar, datalink with target hand off, PIRATE and a full working DASS, with decoys... it could be an awesome and capable swing role aircraft. :)

The internet says that soviet GDP was less than half of US GDP, but they have overcome that problem cleverly, by using almost 20% of their GDP for military spending :smilewink: (all random internet sources).

Let’s not over complicate this, just simply x dollar worth of Tomcat vs x dollar worth of MiG.

 

I'm not sure if i wrote what i meant clearly. 100$ will get you more stuff somewhere in eastern Europe, then it will in the US. In fact, there are places on this planet, where you can survive in relative comfort on 100$ a month. Not so much in the more developed economies.

 

So again, not so easy to estimate. And if you want to go and simplify things, why not just take into account the total units produced (or even better) fielded of each plane and just pit them against each other?

 

If they know, what they are facing, they would probably try to use tactics that make it difficult for the Cats to kill them at safe ranges. (beaming, baiting shots then turning cold to waste missiles, approaching at vastly different altitudes, directions, etc, etc). There would be losses of course, but it shouldn’t be head first against the wall...

 

But why? I mean, in what context? For an F-14 to meat a MiG-23, you need a scenario. You won't find an F-14 in Siberia or Caucasus unless it got badly lost. If they were doing their job, they'd be out in the great wide blue, doing CAP's for the fleet. And what would the MiG-23's be doing for an encounter to work?

Treason against a "country" like the USSR which didn't DESERVE loyalty shouldn't be resented, it should be celebrated.

 

When you're part of a good country it can seem like a bad thing, but the USSR didn't Deserve these peoples undying devotion. It was starving people due to stupid politics driven Lysenkoism "science" and general crony capriciousness. They abandoned an abusive relationship.

 

Most people here probably know about the crimes committed in the name of that terrible ideology, there and in other countries, but things are rarely black and white, and this is not a political forum.

I'm not sure if i wrote what i meant clearly. 100$ will get you more stuff somewhere in eastern Europe, then it will in the US. In fact, there are places on this planet, where you can survive in relative comfort on 100$ a month. Not so much in the more developed economies.

 

So again, not so easy to estimate. And if you want to go and simplify things, why not just take into account the total units produced (or even better) fielded of each plane and just pit them against each other?

 

We can choose to approach this from any direction, the fact is, that producing and fielding a 23 takes only a fraction of the resources needed for a Tomcat.

What is the exact multiplier? I don’t know, and will not even try to research that.

 

Regarding the production numbers:

All MiG-23 versions: ~5000

All F-14 versions: ~700

 

How many was fielded at one time? I will also leave that research to someone else...:)

But why? I mean, in what context? For an F-14 to meat a MiG-23, you need a scenario. You won't find an F-14 in Siberia or Caucasus unless it got badly lost. If they were doing their job, they'd be out in the great wide blue, doing CAP's for the fleet. And what would the MiG-23's be doing for an encounter to work?

 

I did not know that the sole purpose of the F-14 was to fly CAP over the ocean... Who is going to escort a strike package then?

Exactly my thoughts. F-14's were instrumental in the opening strikes on Serbia/ Kosovo in 1999. If my memory serves me well, it was VF-14 and VF-41.

I did not know that the sole purpose of the F-14 was to fly CAP over the ocean... Who is going to escort a strike package then?

It was named Bombcat for a reason... Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq OIF... Not much of a CAP role there.

I did not know that the sole purpose of the F-14 was to fly CAP over the ocean... Who is going to escort a strike package then?

 

Or run the TARPS reconnaissance mission?

It was named Bombcat for a reason... Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq OIF... Not much of a CAP role there.

 

It was used as a Bombcat because the A-6 was withdrawn from service.

 

He was probably referring to escorting A-6/7 strike packages while they were still around when meeting a MiG-23 was quite possible in real life (e.g. over Lebanon in 1983 or over Libya in 1986), not to mention in countless fictional Cold War scenarios that I hope we'll have.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Dudikoff

 

Regarding the production numbers:

All MiG-23 versions: ~5000

All F-14 versions: ~700

 

 

Well there is your answer then. Try to come up with a scenario that would involve all this birds duking it out! :thumbup:

 

I did not know that the sole purpose of the F-14 was to fly CAP over the ocean... Who is going to escort a strike package then?

AND

He was probably referring to escorting A-6/7 strike packages while they were still around when meeting a MiG-23 was quite possible in real life (e.g. over Lebanon in 1983 or over Libya in 1986), not to mention in countless fictional Cold War scenarios that I hope we'll have.

 

This is definitely a viable scenario, however is much more complex in nature. Such deep strike missions are not likely to involve just these two types of AC. As EW packages are likely to fly along (at least on the side of the aggressor) any comparison between the F-14A and Mig-23ML(any) becomes much more complex and less a matter of BFM performance.

 

 

As for?:

Exactly my thoughts. F-14's were instrumental in the opening strikes on Serbia/ Kosovo in 1999. If my memory serves me well, it was VF-14 and VF-41.

 

It was named Bombcat for a reason... Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq OIF... Not much of a CAP role there.

 

It was used as a Bombcat because the A-6 was withdrawn from service.

 

Where i come from, we do not mention that shameful part of our operational service ;)

 

Or run the TARPS reconnaissance mission?

Not sure if you'f like to BFM with that thing on board. I mean, it's large, heavy and draggy as h***.